National Board of Review

[Penelope]

So if "Hispanic" in America can be indifferently used for Spaniard, American of Spanish origins, Southern American, US citizen of Southern American origins, etc... , well, I'm sure that all this is correct, but quite simply it reflects a certain geographical (and historical) confusion - and generalization - which is typically American.

No, I'm sorry, but YOU are wrong. España comes from the Latin word Hispania (what the Romans called the Iberian Peninsula), thus the people and culture of that region would be called Hispanics.

Of course, the word "brown" isn't proper, but to say that Pedro Almodovar or Penelope Cruz are Hispanic IS correct.

Geez, and Europeans think Americans are arrogant and ignorant.

[Eric]

I don't have it right now, but he's in the UAADB group. There's a thread somewhere around here.

[ITALIANO]

Thank you Eric.

Oscar Guy, if someone from Spain can be called "brown", then the term should apply to other Mediterraneans, including, say, Italians or Greeks. Same race, same colors. This is why I strongly opposed to this (as you correctly say, of course, we shouldn't care about skin color in the first place).
As for the dictionaries, they mirror not so much the original, strict meaning of a word, but the way that word is commonly used in the cultural and geographical context those dictionaries deal with. So if "Hispanic" in America can be indifferently used for Spaniard, American of Spanish origins, Southern American, US citizen of Southern American origins, etc... , well, I'm sure that all this is correct, but quite simply it reflects a certain geographical (and historical) confusion - and generalization - which is typically American.

[99-1100896887]

Yes, a link to MySpace-Italiano, please!

[flipp525]

I forgive Italiano because he's hot. Have you seen his MySpace page?

No. Link? I can always forgive a hot guy.

[Big Magilla]

Oh, my aching brow.

I looked the word Hispanic up on-line on dictionary.com. The first meaning is "Spanish". The second is of or pertaining to Latin Americans of Spanish descent.

I also looked the word Latino up. It means is a person of Latin-American or Spanish speaking descent. It does not mean a person from Spain. Since brown is a slang term for Latino, I still dedeuce that Salma Hayek is brown but Pedro Almodovar is not.

And now I'm going to play Clue with my nine year old nephew until his mother gets here to pick him up. Hopefully it will make my headache go away.

[Eric]

I forgive Italiano because he's hot. Have you seen his MySpace page?

[OscarGuy]

I said nothing pro or anti the discussion of the use of the term brown. YOU have made the assumption because I found the lashing you gave to Pen over her post was wholly unnecessary. My post was in defence of hers, not in support of your 'brown' discussion.

The use of the term brown is not one that I typically use nor one that anyone else I know uses.

And I don't know how you suddenly decided to lump Italians into the 'brown' category. That's completely tangential to the discussion and is, perhaps, the reason you've taken offense.

From everything I know, 'brown' is a term reserved for Latino Americans. Spaniards are not considered brown from any of the connotations I've ever heard.

I think this whole skin color discussion is ludicrous anyway. We shouldn't care about skin color and we shouldn't be making a big deal every year about the inclusion of minorities for any reason other than the fact that historically, minorities (and to a greater extent, women) have been underrepresented by the Academy.

Tee's heart is in the right place, even if his terminology isn't 100% accurate.



Edited By OscarGuy on 1165448129

[ITALIANO]

flipp525, it's not about semantics - and if you don't understand this, well, let's just say that you are not as mature as you think you are.

Ok Oscar Guy, so you agree with Mister Tee that people from Spain (or Italy, I guess) can be called "brown" - because this is the point of this discussion. Good to know, but believe me - it's wrong. completely wrong.

[flipp525]

ITALIANO, take it offline or to your own thread. I think there are still tons of things we can discuss about today's NBR developments that don't involve your heretofore undisclosed preoccupation with semantics.

I mean, how old are you, really? Frankly, I think that I and the other 20-something members of this board exhibit more maturity and grace than you do with all your s hit-stirring.

[OscarGuy]

I hate to break this to you, Italiano, but the dictionary entry Penelope provided isn't the least bit confused. It states very clearly that Hispanic is a broad term for anyone of Spanish or Latin American descent whiel Latino is used to refer to only those of Latin American descent.

Random House Dictionary:
–adjective
1. Spanish.
2. Latin American: the United States and its Hispanic neighbors.
–noun
3. Also, Hispano. Also called Hispanic American. an American citizen or resident of Spanish or Latin-American descent.

American Heritage Dictionary:
adj.
1. Of or relating to Spain or Spanish-speaking Latin America.
2. Of or relating to a Spanish-speaking people or culture.
n.
1. A Spanish-speaking person.
2. A U.S. citizen or resident of Latin-American or Spanish descent.



Edited By OscarGuy on 1165446558

[Penelope]

Ah, because Italiano says so, Americans are not permitted to adapt language as needed, despite the fact that the term Hispanic does, indeed and in fact, refer to a person or thing that is Spanish.

Whatever.

[ITALIANO]

"Condescending", Mister Tee, is another favourite American term which I don't like and actually don't understand well. It's easy to accuse someone who doesn't agree with you (and explains why) of being "condescending" - easy especially because it prevents the accuser from really facing the issue and replying. And calling a Spaniard "brown" is probably even more "condescending" anyway.

As for the dictionary you quote, Penelope, it sounds a bit confused about the use of the two terms, and I'm sure we could find other English-language dictionaries with entirely different views on these words. Anyway, the Americans have a talent to modify words and use them the way they like, but since we are talking about latin words here - and I speak a latin language - trust me when I tell you that Almodovar (or any other Spaniard) would look at you as if you are crazy (or American) if you call him "Hispanic" or "brown". It may be accepted in your country, but not in the rest of the big wide world.

[Penelope]

Yes but Almodovar is not Hispanic - he's Spanish... but ok, I realize that we should get into a bit of history and geography now and it would get too complicated to explain.

Actually, you're wrong, Italiano. From the American Heritage Dictionary:

Usage Note: Though often used interchangeably in American English, Hispanic and Latino are not identical terms, and in certain contexts the choice between them can be significant. Hispanic, from the Latin word for “Spain,” has the broader reference, potentially encompassing all Spanish-speaking peoples in both hemispheres and emphasizing the common denominator of language among communities that sometimes have little else in common. Latino, which in Spanish means "Latin" but which as an English word is probably a shortening of the Spanish word latino-americano, refers more exclusively to persons or communities of Latin American origin. Of the two, only Hispanic can be used in referring to Spain and its history and culture; a native of Spain residing in the United States is a Hispanic, not a Latino, and one cannot substitute Latino in the phrase "the Hispanic influence on native Mexican cultures" without garbling the meaning.

[mashari]

But nice to see you're still revved-up to take offense whenever you can.

It just that when that very internally American terminology is applied to people and cultures who are so remote from its, well, restrictedness, it looks a little puzzling. It’s like keeping counting Sophie Okonedo or Marianne Jean Baptiste as African-American when people are making all those race oriented lists.

Not all Americans. Some of us know the difference between Spanish and Hispanic and between Africans, African-Americans and blacks of other cultures.

I was under the impression that "brown" referred to Hispanics from countries where they could be of mixed races - part Spanish (Caucasion), part black and/or part American Indian or Native American. Salma Hayek would qualify, Pedro Almodovar would not.

Djimon Hounsou holds the distinction of being the first black South African to be nominated for an Oscar. I believe Cecil Kellaway was the first white South African.

And Charlize Theron is the first South African to win :laugh:

As for the Spanish/Hispanic issue, I usually avoid the Hispanic term due to its somewhat negative connotations and use the more generally preferred terms Latina or brown.