Mister Tee wrote:I forget what word he used/invented -- giroglyphics?
I meant the hyeroglyphics - or whatever the Egyptian writing system is called in English. I didn't "invent" it - it's just that I didn't know the correct spelling. English isn't my first language after all.
And while I probably piss you off, trust me, it's not my main reason for coming here, though it would make it all so much easier for you.
Well, Johnny Guitar, we apparently view some things differently. For me, telling someone Your ideas are not your own and you're whipped into submission by some other person (a person with whom I disagree in matters of taste far more often than I agree) goes considerably beyond "not being nice" and all the way to deeply, grievously insulting. More to the point, how does one rebut such a charge? It's along the lines of "Prove you're not a Communist". Along with the previously-expressed "If you disagree with me, it's because you don't have the courage to admit the truth" attitude, I didn't see the point in engaging as if this were a person who wanted an honest debate. Anyway, I'd been told my previous posts, offering honest debate, were tedious, requiring translation from -- I forget what word he used/invented -- giroglyphics? Yet you seem to find me the one lacking here. Maybe you're right; maybe you're not around here often enough to understand the pervailing vibe.
As far as I can (still) see, this accusation I'm a Damienite (not that there's anything wrong with that!) arises from 1) expressing a preference for Ian McKellen's performance in Gods and Monsters over the buffoonish work of Benigni and 2) I don't know -- not shouting often enough? Just off the top off my head, I know my opinions of Alexander Payne, Julianne Moore, Paul Thomas Anderson, Paul Greengrass, Children of Men and Pauline Kael run wildly counter to Damien's -- but why should I be required to mount a debater's defense when all that was offered against me was an amorphous, utterly unfounded charge -- from a guy whose main reason for coming here seems to be to piss people off.
flipp525 wrote: The truth of the matter is probably a lot uglier.
A lot uglier means Adolf Hitler - ah but wait, someone already called me that here.
Really, flipp, think whatever you want. I don't expect that you change your mind about me, and I don't care. I hoped you could change your mind about America at least a bit though, but I realize that sadly it's impossible.
ITALIANO wrote:Well... and then there's that annoying mosquito called flipp (when I read his nick I start hearing zzzzzzz in my head). Flipp - you are just completely wrong about EVERYTHING, but I guess you are used to that, aren't you? Five years from now, you will still be wrong. Ten years? Still wrong. Even what you are thinking while you are reading these words - it's just wrong. But two things: 1. I think, personal opinion of course, that you read my posts VERY carefully; 2. if I derailed this thread by myself, well, it means that I'm quite strong and powerful. I doubt you could do the same.
You're so inconsequential, it's ridiculous. The fact that you congratulate people who agree with you while deriding those who challenge your opinions just speaks volumes about your overblown conception of yourself. Oh, and may we all bow down to your great indomitable power to cause strife and pointless debate while derailing threads!
And, no, I don't read your posts VERY carefully. In fact, for the past month and a half or so, I've skipped them altogether, mainly because I find them needling and antagonistic. And absolutely EVERYTHING has to somehow be boiled down to a reductive "Americans against the rest of the world" debate that I find completely tired. It's like you have nothing else to say or something. I loved your post on Cruising and The Boys in the Band, though, and told you so at the time.
My dimestore analysis of your psyche was only an amateur stab in the dark (on point, in sections, I'm almost sure of). The truth of the matter is probably a lot uglier.
Oh, I love it! A new nickname!
Edited By flipp525 on 1193164568
"The mantle of spinsterhood was definitely in her shoulders. She was twenty five and looked it."
I wish Italiano had another subject besides Gods and Monsters and Dreamgirls, and Damien. This has been going on somewhat sporadically for a long time, and I, for one am tired of it. Find another subject!
But this is my point about Mister Tee and the other Damienites (and, I guess, about a certain kind of Americans). Either they are all diplomacy and self repression or, if they explode, they do it this way - mindlessly, and (if I were sensitive, which thank god I'm not) offensively. They can't handle HEALTHY aggressiveness
This was my point too, actually. Which is why I said to Mister Tee that he was proving your point in his response.
As for Dreamgirls - do gays love musicals? Not in Italy (I HATE musicals), but ok, maybe in America they do.
Well, if you know Hollywood and you know American culture, you should have come across this stereotype by now. Obviously there are plenty of gay Americans who don't like musicals, don't care about them at all. Certainly it has nothing to do with identity, no connection to sexual attraction. But as a general cultural touchstone, as a way for gay people in America to help create groups, a sense of community, a collective social/sociopolitical identity, it may have as much validity as any. But there are plenty of gay people knowledgeable about musical theater here, and as I'm neither, they could explain more than I.
And please, I think too highly of you to believe that you can't find anything to disagree with Damien about except "something Bollywood-related". If it's so, you are a Damienite too...
Oh relax, I was being facetious there. I gave no indication at all that "something Bollywood-related" (which is a massive field in itself, as I'm sure you know, and also something I'm personally interested in, as Damien knows) is ALL we could disagree about. It was just a single, simple example, and more an allusion to Damien's aversion to the classic Mother India (which I like) than anything else, probably.
Johnny Guitar wrote:"fuck you and the horse you rode in on" doesn't mean anything, does it?
But this is my point about Mister Tee and the other Damienites (and, I guess, about a certain kind of Americans). Either they are all diplomacy and self repression or, if they explode, they do it this way - mindlessly, and (if I were sensitive, which thank god I'm not) offensively. They can't handle HEALTHY aggressiveness - this is the dark side I was referring to and, I mean, better to see it directed at me than, say, at innocent students in a college or old ladies in a subway. This is what's wrong about America, about violence in America, and I think we should all thank Mister Tee for showing it so clearly.
But no, Mister Tee, I won't skip over your future posts. Definitely not. I'm sure that I will find them extremely interesting, actually.
I'm glad to see that most of the others took what I said in the right way - and with some humour, too, which is always good. And yes, Johnny Guitar, I don't have anything against Damien - the past is past after all - but I can only feel contempt for those who follow him (or anyone else) devotedly, uncritically. As I've said often, it's not politeness, it's not tact - it's hypocrisy, and, though it gets on my nerves, I can't deny that I find it endlessly fascinating. This board helps me to understand America in a way nothing else before - including great novels or great movies - has done.
As for Dreamgirls - do gays love musicals? Not in Italy (I HATE musicals), but ok, maybe in America they do. Still, one thing is having high expectations for an upcoming movie, another is reacting the way everyone here did last year when I shyly tried to explain why I felt its director wouldn't have been nominated. That's what the Damienites did - there is a big difference (as rolotomasi pointed out, if I had said the same things about for example a Sidney Lumet movie, trust me, I wouldn't have treated like that).
And please, I think too highly of you to believe that you can't find anything to disagree with Damien about except "something Bollywood-related". If it's so, you are a Damienite too...
Anyway, I've tried all my life to go beyond the banal, beyond the surface, beyond what the majority thinks to get to some kind of deeper truth. (Studying philosophy helped). I've always fely that you get to that truth only through discussion and even fight sometimes, definitely not through a peaceful, "polite" mutual agreement. And I certainly won't change now. I'm glad to see that some here - like you and others - can face my "truths" without feeling personally threatened. It's a very good sign.
Well... and then there's that annoying mosquito called flipp (when I read his nick I start hearing zzzzzzz in my head). Flipp - you are just completely wrong about EVERYTHING, but I guess you are used to that, aren't you? Five years from now, you will still be wrong. Ten years? Still wrong. Even what you are thinking while you are reading these words - it's just wrong. But two things: 1. I think, personal opinion of course, that you read my posts VERY carefully; 2. if I derailed this thread by myself, well, it means that I'm quite strong and powerful. I doubt you could do the same.
Johnny, I don't know if it originally came from the movie, but I remember vaguely the quote being used in "Three Amigos" as "screw you and the horse you rode in on".
Wesley Lovell
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
Sonic, good job at least trying to inject some levity. I thought that was funny.
This debate has just seemed like a black hole. And since I'm so sporadic on the UAADB maybe I shouldn't even say anything. But... (Damien, the next time we meet up, let's get something we agree on--like scotch--and then discuss something we disagree on, shall we? Perhaps something Bollywood-related...)
Mister Tee, Italiano's criticisms were not "nice" but even his accusations were founded upon an argument (however poor you may have found it). I don't know that he's right about a Damienite cult, personaly I (irregular visitor though I am) haven't noticed you toeing a party line, but surely you're proving his point a little? Attack his reasoning, defend yourself if you feel you're in the right, by all means (and you moved a little in this direction, with facts about your opinions in '98, etc.), but "fuck you and the horse you rode in on" doesn't mean anything, does it?
I think Marco & Uri are right that we (Americans) sometimes hide a passive aggression behind politeness, and perhaps we aren't always great at debating. (Possibly there is even a subtle, subconscious Damienite cult, though as a good friend of Damien I can attest--as Marco admitted, too--that Damien himself doesn't encourage this; and he handles disagreement and debates just fine of course.) However, I would think they'd want to account at least partly for subcultural ferment as a source of certain elements of collective tastes. This board is full of people with at least partly AMPAS/reviewers-oriented tastes, who are invested in (American) pop culture, including a love Broadway musicals, and everybody here is queer or queer-friendly ... one would have to be foolish not to expect some higher-than-'average' level of expectations and appreciation here for a film like Dreamgirls, with or without Damien, no?
