It's October, Time for More Predictions

[OscarGuy]

Let's get some things straight regarding Best Animated Feature.

There IS a clause that dictates the feature animation board can select and honor only one film. However, they've been pushing for a category for so long, they have to at least fill it out with the minimum 3 each year. Not saying that's good or bad, but let's clarify also another misperception:

Waking Life and Scanner Darkly weren't ignored because they are adult films. Hardly. The reason they were excluded is the same reason the not-adult Polar Express was ignored. They are motion-capture films. They use live actors and then animate over that. They are less about the art of capturing emotion and action from memory than about capturing it from existing reality. Many animators feel that this is a cheat and not true animation anyway.

Another factor is studio cronyism. The big studios have a larger majority in the branch than any other. So, they are more likely to recognize films like Brother Bear and Treasure Planet (though, I completely disagree with anyone who says Planet wasn't fun. It certainly was, but some people too unfairly lashed out at it because it was part of the era of Disney's decline and had been adapted into a space adventure instead of the traditional narrative). However, it's no different than the Makeup board consistently recognizing prosthetic work (excluding anything horror) instead of recognizing other more subtle work or the Art Directors and Costume Designers nominating the same lame period dramas (Edwardian and Victorian, mostly) over and over while some great, more-modern designs left in the dirt.

The Oscars are all about "what keeps us in business". They aren't interested in art for art's sake, so why, other than sheer displeasure with animated features (a point over which Damien and I severely disagree), did people expect anything more from the Animated Film category? Criticizing the category for the selections decisions made by a small group of people is no more or less of a big deal than criticizing the entire organization for its dreadful choices...and for every Brother Bear, there's a brilliant work like Spirited Away that takes home the prize. So, whether it's nominated or not, the generally-best will take the prize (Happy Feet excluded).

[VanHelsing]

OMG!!! I think I missed out on all the fun.

BUT please let it be known that I'm a Sandra Bullockian!

Thank you!

[ITALIANO]

. (I know I disagree wholeheartedly with Damien about the goddamn cartoon thing, but I've never EVER felt personally attacked or offended by any of his comments on the matter.)

Original BJ, the fact that you weren't doesn't mean that nobody ever was. You can ask anyone who has been here for longer time than you - or who had to leave, like this guy, Hedgy - to realize the truth about such an "articulate and respectful" member.

[Uri]

Seriously, I don't think anyone on this board ever makes a comment because they are trying to impress another poster, or fall lock-step in line with another's opinions. And if our opinions sometimes overlap, well, there are more than enough times when they don't.

I guess I’m the only one who does. Hopefully it’s not my main reason for posting here, but I’m sorry to say that after too many years having to live with my retched persona, I’m aware of certain vain elements in me here and there. It’s very reassuring to be informed I’m the only flowed one here. The world must be a better place than I found it to be.

Uri, I’m sorry but if someone is personally invested in a work that’s discussed here, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with treading gently about it. One can be honest without being condescending and obnoxious. And if that’s an American trait, then this is one of the few times I’m really proud to be an American.

Damien – I’m afraid you didn’t get my point. I wish I could say I’ve never knowingly and intentionally attacked you personally. I did once, and I may have lived to regret it, at least to a certain degree. But for quite a few years now I’ve been trying to be respectful toward you, mainly because I actually do respect you. And strange, or even phony, as it may sound, I’m rather fond of the way you conduct yourself when it comes to Condon’s films. And I’ve never doubt your sincerity. I’m totally aware though that once you're involved in a creative process, being aware of a lot – motivations, themes, aesthetic choices and other stuff not necessarily evident in the finished product - as you are in your friend’s work, your judgment is affected. Not tainted, not blinded, not ruined, but unlike Marco, I don’t believe we are capable of being objective all the time, under any circumstances. And while I may have poked fun at your zealous devotion to Dreamgirls, I was doing so a) knowing you’re capable of being the target of such roasting, even willingly accepting it (I’m sorry if I got this wrong), and b) again, never for a moment doubting your profound and honest sincerity. I did and do think your “objectivity” was altered, but there was nothing wrong with it, and this insider’s point of view was very welcomed indeed, as long as it was seen as such. I did have a problem with other people, who, whether in awe of you (which is ok, to a point) or because they confuse unconsciously intellectual hypocrisy with good manners (and this is, indeed, a very popular mechanism in American culture), made it impossible to have an open and, yes, in times heated and raunchy discussion for the fear you may be offended. It wasn’t your doing and you shouldn’t be blamed but for being respected and loved here, but it was about you, so it became a Damien affair. And this Damian affair was a rather revealing, even significantly so, of many undercurrents and trends in this community. It did strike some meaningful cords, so it still lives on. Not the Dreamgirls debate, but the demons it unveiled. Sort of.

[The Original BJ]

dws, you have a good point regarding the Animated Feature category. However, bad taste ruins the nominees as much in this category as any other, and the REAL reason why stuff like Jimmy Neutron and Treasure Planet and Brother Bear get nominated is because voters have a complete aversion to adult animation. The contenders may be few, but of course the lineups are lousy when year after year films by Richard Linklater and Satoshi Kon are left on the sidelines.

Honestly, I'm pretty worried that Persepolis (sight unseen, but I've read those raves) will be left out this year for something like Shrek the Third (sight seen...ick!). Don't think it couldn't happen.

[Damien]

Best Animated Feature ultimately becomes about filling out a category, which is why you get pieces of crap like Jimmy Newtron: Boy Genius nominated, and mega-bombs like Treasure Planet. If it's good enough, and well-liked enough, let it compete in Best Picture (I don't even have a problem with them giving out an honorary award if they really want to), but this category is just a waste.

My feelings exactly. Mayne I'm a DWS1982ite (which I would be happy to be).

[The Original BJ]

Well, Italiano, let's start off with, Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

Is it bad that I immediately had an image of Italiano riding into a restaurant on a horse painted green?

Seriously, I don't think anyone on this board ever makes a comment because they are trying to impress another poster, or fall lock-step in line with another's opinions. And if our opinions sometimes overlap, well, there are more than enough times when they don't. That Damien and Mister Tee have been singled out for ridicule is ridiculous, particularly when both are among the most articulate and respectful members of the board. (I know I disagree wholeheartedly with Damien about the goddamn cartoon thing, but I've never EVER felt personally attacked or offended by any of his comments on the matter.)

What really has got to stop is this "your opinions are not your own" thing. We can argue whether a film is good or bad till the cows come home, it's all a matter of taste. How anyone feels they can effectively persuade someone that their opinion is not their own -- dare I say, how they think they can KNOW said opinion is in fact, a lie -- is beyond me.

Besides, Italiano, don't you think it's just a waste of time???

(For what it's worth, I was a little shocked I WASN'T included on the list of Damienites, especially given that I love Gods and Monsters, Kinsey, Chicago, and Dreamgirls. If that doesn't make me a Damienite, I'm clearly missing the criteria...maybe because it A) doesn't include anything concrete and B) doesn't apply to anyone on this board.)

[dws1982]

And finally, if I hold such sway on this Board, how come nobody agrees with me on the most obvious point ever? – that Best Goddamned Cartoon was the worst most unnecessary and worthless category the Academy ever came up with and should be done away immediately.

dws1982 does, Damien.

My main problem with that category is not so much out of disdain for animated films (although I don't much care for them), but more out of the fact that there may be 15-20 eligible animated films per year--and usually not that many--which gives the films a better than 20% chance of being nominated. If you're nominating 20% (and sometimes) of the eligible films in that category, then why not fifty Best Picture nominees? Answer: Best Picture nominees are about (supposedly) nominating the best of the best. Best Animated Feature ultimately becomes about filling out a category, which is why you get pieces of crap like Jimmy Newtron: Boy Genius nominated, and mega-bombs like Treasure Planet. If it's good enough, and well-liked enough, let it compete in Best Picture (I don't even have a problem with them giving out an honorary award if they really want to), but this category is just a waste.

[anonymous1980]

And finally, if I hold such sway on this Board, how come nobody agrees with me on the most obvious point ever? – that Best Goddamned Cartoon was the worst most unnecessary and worthless category the Academy ever came up with and should be done away immediately.

dws1982 does, Damien.

I don't agree with you all the time but I still admire and respect you as a poster.

[ITALIANO]

I think anyone who has taken even a week of Psychology 101 could tell you that Italiano’s focus on Bill Condon is not on the filmmaker or his movies but on something deeper and more personal. (It’s scary there.)

Yes, it's kind of true - I find something truly disturbing in his movies, and I could even explain in detail what (basically, they are fake, deeply dishonest movies). But THEY are scary, not my reaction to them. (And at least I don't know him personally - speaking about psychology, YOUR devotion to him would be extremely interesting to analyze, but I don't want to go into that).

I'm not a fan of Pauline Kael. I just don't like to see her quickly dismissed as she often is here, by you and the Damienites.

What about Flipp's posts about me then? I think my reply was quite nice actually (yeah, Damien, "valued and cherished member..." blah blah. Congratulations again to your honesty)

As for being gentle, well, I think we should go back to some of your posts in the (even recent) past - I'm sure that those who are on this board from long time remember them well - to realize that, while for example I can accept lessons of taste and politeness from Big Magilla, well, from you, Damien, it would be truly difficult. Now you let others make the "dirty work" for you, but let's face it, it's the same.

As from this board, we all get much from it, and I agree especially with FilmFan and with what he wrote about it. We just have different characters and different approaches - still of course if mine is considered to be too, let's say, extreme, well, just let me know and I will leave. No problem - seriously. This is a democratic board after all. But at my not-so-tender age I doubt I will change - especially since I like the way I am.

[Damien]

I’m visiting my Mom and just got to a computer (dial-up LOL), but wow there sure are a lot of new posts in this thread.

I’m rather embarrassed and uncomfortable by this whole Damienite thing, so I hope it will quickly fade away, BUT I do have a few things to add.

i still find it ironic, though, that you get so mad at italiano for disliking everything made by bill condon, but you put so much energy into disliking anything lumet has directed. when directors like robert zemeckis continue to be given hundreds of millions of dollars to make crap like BEOWULF and A CHRISTMAS CAROL,

I’m not obsessed with Lumet (or Ridley Scott). I am railing against them right now because they have new films bout to be released. Unlike Bill Condon, whose last project came out nearly a year ago. I think anyone who has taken even a week of Psychology 101 could tell you that Italiano’s focus on Bill Condon is not on the filmmaker or his movies but on something deeper and more personal. (It’s scary there.) {And Rolo I think Zemeckis is by far the worst director of the last two decades, He makes Lumet look like Jean Renoir. I avoid him like the plague.)

But Marco, your claim that Dreamgirls is a lousy movie is merely an opinion, it’s not a fact. The movie received mixed reviews, but it received a large number of raves – including one from that most slavish follower of your beloved Kael (I’d scarcely call her a critic, by the way, she was a fanboy in a woman’s body), David Denby.

Johnny, you know I love you, but I think Tee’s response was perfectly in line with Italiano’s remarks. As Tee has stated, he and I disagree with each other on the vast majority of films and directors, but I still always smile when I see that he has a new post, because he’s one of the most knowledgeable, articulate and intelligent posters I’ve come across anywhere on the Internet.


Flipp, ROTFLMFAO at your avatar. Touche! Marco your comments to Flipp were beyond the pale. “Honesty” need not encompass such rudeness and condescension. Flip is a valuable and cherished member of this Board, and your post is contemptible.

Sonic, love your New Element Post!!!

FilmFan loved your various ites! Says it all!

Uri, I’m sorry but if someone is personally invested in a work that’s discussed here, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with treading gently about it. One can be honest without being condescending and obnoxious. And if that’s an American trait, then this is one of the few times I’m really proud to be an American.

Marco, I get as much from this board as I supposedly give. Penelope has made me look at Mark Robson again. Eric at Paul Verhoeven. Sabin at Bettie Page. Another Case in point. Thin Red Line. I had dismissed it as a mess after one viewing, but the adulation for it from Johnny G, DWS and, yes, you, made me revisit it and I now feel it’s a masterpiece.

And finally, if I hold such sway on this Board, how come nobody agrees with me on the most obvious point ever? – that Best Goddamned Cartoon was the worst most unnecessary and worthless category the Academy ever came up with and should be done away immediately.

Oh, I don't remember now if this is the thread this issue appeared on LOL but I was with Ian McKellen in LA once when he was besieged by kids wanting his autograph.



Edited By Damien on 1193184003

[99-1100896887]

Or me--who hates Andrew Lloyd Webber. Does this make me a Webberphobe?

[Penelope]

And I suppose those who, like me, revere the films of Mark Robson (with two notable exceptions) would be Penelopeites...or, better, Penelopeons!

[OscarGuy]

I feel left out, FilmFan...

[FilmFan720]

I believe that How Green Was My Valley is one of the greatest films of all time...does that make me a Magillaite?

I believe Wes Andersen is a modern cinematic genius, and Beauty and the Beast makes me cry...does that make me a Sabinite?

I think Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me is a monumental achievement, not a disaster...does that make me an Ericite?

I really love Lawrence of Arabia...does that make me a MovieWesite?

I think Nine is one of the most glorious musicals of all time...does that make me a Mister Teeite?

This whole discussion is just getting ridiculous. One of the great things about this board is the wildly differing opinions who are able to come together and share our love of cinema in a (usually) structured and congenial atmosphere. There is no one here who I have ever agreed with on every movie ever made, but I have found something to share with every member. No one here has EVER followed another member blindly. I think the heart of this board is the opportunity to always be challenged and prompted by other members of the board, and to discover new films (both wonderful and hideous) that other members share a love for. I can think of no other discussion board on the Internet where people of seemingly differing tastes in film can come together and become friends (including ITALIANO).

Now, where is a new, impressionable young kid to come along and become a FilmFan720ite...that would make my day:)



Edited By FilmFan720 on 1193167107