Osama Bin Laden Killed

[Damien]

Don't the yahoos who were dancing in the streets realize that they're behaving the same way as some in the Arab world who danced and celebrated on 9/11, filling Americans of every stripe with revulsion and anger?

This is exactly what I thought. And they also thought that justice had been done - that evil America had finally been punished.

I found that behavior atrocious back then. I don't see why I should consider THIS behavior better today.

There is huge a difference, ITALIANO, between people rejoicing over the deaths of 3,000 innocent civilians and celebrating the death of the man who orchestrated those deaths.

Marco has already addressed this but it bears repeating. We know that the people in the Twin Towers were innocent, but that's not the perception of tens of millions of people around the world, who see all of us Americans as complicit in the evil they consider United States foreign policy to be (just as we tend to judge German citizens in the 30s and 40s as accomplisces to Hitler). It would be healthy for you -- and others-- to try to understand the mind-sets of other peoples. You'll still violently disagree with their attutdes but perhaps you'll at least partially see from where these attitudes stem.

[Damien]

Don't the yahoos who were dancing in the streets realize that they're behaving the same way as some in the Arab world who danced and celebrated on 9/11, filling Americans of every stripe with revulsion and anger?

My guess is that, yes, they were, and they wanted to throw it right back in their faces.

Wow, you stay away from this board today for a few hours and there's so much to respond to.

I don't think these people are perspicacious enough to realize they're aping the 9/11 celebrators. If they were. they would have stopped immediately because they last thing they's want to do is -- God forbid -- be acting like Muslims. Throwing it back in their faces -- it's a slippery slope when people allow their emotions to get the better of their reason. I wish we Americans were better than that. At least I can take solace in that most omy friends, my family and I are.



Edited By Damien on 1304382074

[Sabin]

(ITALIANO @ May 02 2011,6:07)

(MovieWes @ May 02 2011,5:52)

Too many enemies, I guess. And this is paranoia, my friends.

Last I heard, Iraq is the most unpopular war American since Vietnam. Someone, please correct me if I'm wrong...
Last you heard, maybe. But before I didn't see all those people, including you, marching in the streets against that war.

I did it, in Rome. I didn't see any of you.

I did. And so did countless friends of mine. There were scores of protests of the past decade, Marco. A lot of them didn't make the news. Not fair.

[Sabin]

(ITALIANO @ May 02 2011,6:04)

As for having been a decade of grief, Sabin, I believe it and I'm very sorry for that. But ten bad years are nothing compared to the endless grief that other places in the world are going through - decades, centuries sometimes, of grief.

There must be a middle ground between being...how shall we put this? Overly mindful of America's role in the cycle of things? And...let's see...a human being. A human being who often times loses track of those decades, centuries sometimes, of said grief and is simply glad the man who attacked their city and killed their friends is dead.

[ITALIANO]

Too many enemies, I guess. And this is paranoia, my friends.

Last I heard, Iraq is the most unpopular war American since Vietnam. Someone, please correct me if I'm wrong...[/quote]
Last you heard, maybe. But before I didn't see all those people, including you, marching in the streets against that war.

I did it, in Rome. I didn't see any of you.

[ITALIANO]

(ITALIANO @ May 02 2011,5:28)

(Mister Tee @ May 02 2011,5:22)

Americans are happy the rat-bastard is dead.

This is sure - I saw the fireworks. I wish Americans were so united in condemning their own country's atrocities, Mister Tee (atrocities compared to which Bin Laden was a pure soul). Otherwise this happiness is just pbtuse and selfish.

It's been one day, dude. If it's going on for a week or a month, I'll agree with you. But it's been one day. It's been ten years, two wars, almost three elections, one collapse...and it's been a messy and horrible decade. Grief is a strange thing, and while I don't condone rejoicing over death, I do understand closure. He's dead and it's been less than twenty-four hours. You have the rest of your life to be That Guy.

You mentioned something earlier I responded to but then deleted in regards to your comments about how much of the world holds all americans accountable in some way for the actions dictated by the men they elect. Because they combined the condescension towards MovieWes where you claimed he might not be able to understand that outside world's perception of America on top of ultimately vaguery over whether or not you yourself held the men and women who died in the attacks of 9/11 at least indirectly responsible for the cycle of violence that resulted in their own demise, I decided against directly responding. But that is what I am sensing here a lot. There is a lot of...I'm going to call it relative indifference to the loss of their lives against the weight of everything America has done involving the rest of the world. I just want to say that I think it's not incredibly fair to hold the weight of all human atrocities in a scale against one life. Or 3000. No one (or 3000) should have to tip that scale even. And with the remove of an ocean and ages of history that we cannot compare to, you're scoffing at our response after twenty-four hours.

Now, I don't like the dancing in the streets. And I don't like that he wasn't brought in. But I have been on this Board for a long time and corresponded with you for at least half a decade, and I would never dream of weighing your life against the history of your country and its effect on the rest of the world.

Please just stop it.

You didn't understand me - must be my English, plus it's very late here in Italy.

Of course those 3000 men and women were INNOCENT. I was just explaining why some - not I - think that Americans, including those Americans, are guilty just for being American. It's not MY view - but in some areas of the world this is the general feeling, due also to the fact that there doesn't seem to be an internal debate inside America on certain issues. Maybe there is, but we don't see it from outside. And that explained that dancing in the street that, I repeat, I condemned in 2001. It also lasted only one day, by the way, but that doesn't make it more innocent in my eyes.

As for having been a decade of grief, Sabin, I believe it and I'm very sorry for that. But ten bad years are nothing compared to the endless grief that other places in the world are going through - decades, centuries sometimes, of grief.

[Sabin]

Are you asking me or are you just talking?

[ITALIANO]

Again! But do you really believe this version? Have you checked his corpse? There are things called "lies" my God, and there are many dark aspects in all this story. Can't you for one moment have a doubt - just a fleeting one - about an "official version"?

There it is. Maybe I've been lucky to be busy for most of my day and away from other people, but the first person in my proximity to demand to see the body is you. I'm not joking. You are the first. Not someone on FOX News. Not some asshole at a bar. You.[/quote]
I've heard somewhere that the official reason is that, according to Muslim religion, the body had to be buried 24 hours after his death. So they were so sensitive, after killing him, to throw the body in the ocean - just for religious reasons.

And someone will even believe this story.

[MovieWes]

if Osama Bin Laden was this monster etc, why did most American approve of the war against Iraq? Bin Laden wasn't Iraqi, didnt live in Iraq, etc... So why did Americans cheered when thousands of Iraqi civilians were murdered?

Too many enemies, I guess. And this is paranoia, my friends.

Last I heard, Iraq is the most unpopular war American since Vietnam. Someone, please correct me if I'm wrong...

[Sabin]

(ITALIANO @ May 02 2011,5:28)

(Mister Tee @ May 02 2011,5:22)

Americans are happy the rat-bastard is dead.

This is sure - I saw the fireworks. I wish Americans were so united in condemning their own country's atrocities, Mister Tee (atrocities compared to which Bin Laden was a pure soul). Otherwise this happiness is just pbtuse and selfish.

It's been one day, dude. If it's going on for a week or a month, I'll agree with you. But it's been one day. It's been ten years, two wars, almost three elections, one collapse...and it's been a messy and horrible decade. Grief is a strange thing, and while I don't condone rejoicing over death, I do understand closure. He's dead and it's been less than twenty-four hours. You have the rest of your life to be That Guy.

You mentioned something earlier I responded to but then deleted in regards to your comments about how much of the world holds all americans accountable in some way for the actions dictated by the men they elect. Because they combined the condescension towards MovieWes where you claimed he might not be able to understand that outside world's perception of America on top of ultimately vaguery over whether or not you yourself held the men and women who died in the attacks of 9/11 at least indirectly responsible for the cycle of violence that resulted in their own demise, I decided against directly responding. But that is what I am sensing here a lot. There is a lot of...I'm going to call it relative indifference to the loss of their lives against the weight of everything America has done involving the rest of the world. I just want to say that I think it's not incredibly fair to hold the weight of all human atrocities in a scale against one life. Or 3000. No one (or 3000) should have to tip that scale even. And with the remove of an ocean and ages of history that we cannot compare to, you're scoffing at our response after twenty-four hours.

Now, I don't like the dancing in the streets. And I don't like that he wasn't brought in. But I have been on this Board for a long time and corresponded with you for at least half a decade, and I would never dream of weighing your life against the history of your country and its effect on the rest of the world.

Please just stop it.

[ITALIANO]

as anyone who has ever seen a movie should know.

Unfortunately I haven't seen only movies - I've LIVED. And I've been often both to the US and to the Arab world. How many of you can say the same? Because this is the point.

Plus, sorry Mister Tee, just a humble question - if Osama Bin Laden was this monster etc, why did most American approve of the war against Iraq? Bin Laden wasn't Iraqi, didnt live in Iraq, etc... So why did Americans cheered when thousands of Iraqi civilians were murdered?

Too many enemies, I guess. And this is paranoia, my friends.



Edited By ITALIANO on 1304376111

[Sabin]

(Martin Luter King @ um, I don't know)

I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate, adding deeper darkness to a night that is already void of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

Yup.

(ITALIANO @May 02 2011,4:28)

(MovieWes @ May 02 2011,4:16)

He wasn't executed, he was killed in battle.

Again! But do you really believe this version? Have you checked his corpse? There are things called "lies" my God, and there are many dark aspects in all this story. Can't you for one moment have a doubt - just a fleeting one - about an "official version"?

There it is. Maybe I've been lucky to be busy for most of my day and away from other people, but the first person in my proximity to demand to see the body is you. I'm not joking. You are the first. Not someone on FOX News. Not some asshole at a bar. You.



Edited By Sabin on 1304375931

[Big Magilla]

The plan all along was to kill, not capture, but according to a state dept. official, Obama's order was "capture if able or kill if not." There are also reports that that the 12 member team cheered when told what thier mission was. I'm sure they were hoping he'd put a fight so they could take him out.

The woman who was killed was put in harm's way by one of the dead men using her as a shield.

And, as MovieWes and dws have said, there's a difference between dancing in the street rejoicing at the deaths of 3,000 innocents compared to the rejoicing at the death of teh mastermind behind those deaths as anyone who has ever seen a movie should know.

In fact one of the makeshift placards someone was holding up last night read "Dign Dong Bin Laden Is Dead", a play on "Ding Dong the Witch Is Dead" from The Wizard of Oz.

[ITALIANO]

Americans are happy the rat-bastard is dead.

This is sure - I saw the fireworks. I wish Americans were so united in condemning their own country's atrocities, Mister Tee (atrocities compared to which Bin Laden was a pure soul). Otherwise this happiness is just pbtuse and selfish.

[Mister Tee]

We all know that he could have been taken alive.

Assumes facts not in evidence. I guess you just know it in your "gut". (Tell us, class: what American president does that sound like?)

I get the feeling some here would have considered the V-J Day celebration gauche.

Sonic, I was in a generous mood last night, so I gave the full Clinton/Bush/Obama continuum some credit. Though I think the revised approach of the past two years is primarily responsible.

The guy issued a declaration of war against America 13 years ago. He's responsible for ordering many American deaths -- not just the 9/11 attacks, but the USS Cole. Americans are happy the rat-bastard is dead. It takes a special purity to get all uptight about that.