Somalia
Oh Kaytodd, if I spoke English well, and, as you said, we were eating together and drinking good wine, it would probably be easy to explain correctly what I mean. But my English isn't good, and I've been even compared to Hitler for some things I've said recently, so you must understand me if I don't want to be (intentionally?) misunderstood again - it gets a bit tiring after a while. But I think that JG has made some good points in his posts. Still, you could say that it's not our fault if we (even we Italians, by the way) were born in the rich, powerful part of the world. True, but it's entirely our fault if we refuse to understand WHY we are so rich and others are so poor. It's our fault if we refuse to see our enemy's point of view - or even if we consider it "an enemy", without distinctions. It's our fault if, even among us, we conveniently still think in terms of good guys/bad guys and proclaim that it's only George W. Bush's fault, and don't realize not only that he was elected by many of us (twice), but even, in a more subtle way, that George W. Bush is the product of a mentality and a culture which we are also part of, and sometimes, in our daily actions, on other matters, which we share and are responsible of. It's our fault if we are always blindly on the winner's side, and never try to identify with the losers. If we don't have the slightest interest, or curiosity, or knowledge, about the rest of the world and other cultures and ways of thinking. I'm not saying that you should come to the Middle East with me, don't get me wrong, that would probably be too much, but there are other ways of getting informations (and anyway too few Americans travel often abroad). In a way, it's probably about - you guessed it - being cowards. But at least having doubts about ourselves and the world as we know it (or, I'd say, as we are lead to know it - by the media mainly) would be an important first step.
The levels of responsibility may be subtle and difficult to explain, but I think you are obligated to try to explain them, given that you started this thread with that strong statement.ITALIANO wrote:Do I think that, say, Big Magilla with his love for Beulah Bondi is responsible for Iraq or Somalia? The easy answer, the politically correct one, would be no, of course. Yet I think that in a certain way he is. He wasn't on those planes, I know, he didn't push any button, and maybe he never voted for "Bush and his cronies" - still there are other, more, let's say, metaphorical levels of responsability. They are more subtle, more difficult to explain even, but they still exist.
From reading all your posts on this thread, I do not think you made that statement as a mere flame. You sound to me like someone trying to say something meaningful. This is an interesting thread.
The great thing in the world is not so much where we stand, as in what direction we are moving. It's faith in something and enthusiasm for something that makes a life worth living. Oliver Wendell Holmes
Well, it's possible that since I don't go to the States anymore, and I choose instead to go to countries which are in many ways victims of the US (and more generally of the western world), I don't know much about the tensions in your country now, Sabin. So I'm sure you are right. Yet, you know what - I owe much of what I think about the US lately not only to magazines, newspapers, etc, but mainly, I have to say, to this board. Still it's true of course that this board is only partially a mirror of the more complex situation and ideas in the US - and by the way people who often here seem to act frankly like the bunch of cowards I like to refer to, taken individually, in private chats, etc, reveal other, more interesting, even surprising sides. They also sound much more honest. Too bad that here they feel the need of "following the group" - and I'm afraid that this can be true of Americans in general, too.
RE: US imperialism and corporate control.
...oh yeah...that...
Before I begin, I will say that at this point in my life (not all Americans, mind you, many of whom are a pretty earnest lot), there is nothing I can do about making a sarcastic remark in light of a pretty horrific situation like the bombing in Somalia, not to mention so many others on such a regular basis. That I cracked one Bill Condon joke (in which I was not comparing Bill Condon to the Somalia situation, but merely stating that he shares the blame with all of us, which, in your logic, he does), I'd say, is demonstratively restrained of me, and all things considered not really indicative of a lack of a global respect as I already commented that, there's really no way around it, an Italian had to illuminate me as to what my government was doing. In this country today, it has become numbing to read articles like this.
Which leads me to JG's statement. There is an overwhelming passivity today re: our capacity towards any form of substantial change in the current economic forum. Conversations with my friends in Cleveland inevitably go back to undocumented arrests during the '04 election. With my friends in New York, it was the police beatings they were privvy to and they themselves caught on tape during the convention. There is great unrest and hopelessness going hand in hand that I've witnessed in my life so far, and although this in no way excuses the overwhelming back-peddling this country has done this past decade (to isolate one administration before others for the sake of this argument), I feel as though we were not prepared for this. This is a vague defense in no way meant to excuse actions or lack thereof, but an impression I'm just getting both from the frustrations of those who try to become active in changing a country the believe so much in, as well as those who voted for Kerry because Howard Stern told them to. I was hoping the "My Bad" statement was some form of acknowledgment of the above, but I guess not.
I guess this is the response Italiano intended. A series of reponses. If insincere, dismissive rejoinders and are a typically American thing to do, I guess I'm guilty. But I don't see a lack of self-criticism in this country. I really do not at all.
To Italiano specifically, I do understand that you're just responding to a post, just as I was positing a question earlier regarding tone.
...oh yeah...that...
Before I begin, I will say that at this point in my life (not all Americans, mind you, many of whom are a pretty earnest lot), there is nothing I can do about making a sarcastic remark in light of a pretty horrific situation like the bombing in Somalia, not to mention so many others on such a regular basis. That I cracked one Bill Condon joke (in which I was not comparing Bill Condon to the Somalia situation, but merely stating that he shares the blame with all of us, which, in your logic, he does), I'd say, is demonstratively restrained of me, and all things considered not really indicative of a lack of a global respect as I already commented that, there's really no way around it, an Italian had to illuminate me as to what my government was doing. In this country today, it has become numbing to read articles like this.
Which leads me to JG's statement. There is an overwhelming passivity today re: our capacity towards any form of substantial change in the current economic forum. Conversations with my friends in Cleveland inevitably go back to undocumented arrests during the '04 election. With my friends in New York, it was the police beatings they were privvy to and they themselves caught on tape during the convention. There is great unrest and hopelessness going hand in hand that I've witnessed in my life so far, and although this in no way excuses the overwhelming back-peddling this country has done this past decade (to isolate one administration before others for the sake of this argument), I feel as though we were not prepared for this. This is a vague defense in no way meant to excuse actions or lack thereof, but an impression I'm just getting both from the frustrations of those who try to become active in changing a country the believe so much in, as well as those who voted for Kerry because Howard Stern told them to. I was hoping the "My Bad" statement was some form of acknowledgment of the above, but I guess not.
I guess this is the response Italiano intended. A series of reponses. If insincere, dismissive rejoinders and are a typically American thing to do, I guess I'm guilty. But I don't see a lack of self-criticism in this country. I really do not at all.
To Italiano specifically, I do understand that you're just responding to a post, just as I was positing a question earlier regarding tone.
"How's the despair?"
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Johnny Guitar
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DWS, I don't know what else Italiano has said. Maybe it wasn't nice, maybe it wasn't correct--I can certainly believe either. I was just responding to this, here. I also don't want to get involved with flame wars or anything, especially since I'm so rare a visitor to the UAADB these days.
Damien, I know that you and I feel the same about the war, about Bush, about US imperialism, so as to how we've come down on opposite sides here of this issue of personal guilt/responsibility ... well, I don't know! :O Maybe this is best discussed in conversation, over a coffee, but let me explain here first why I feel responsible, why I feel we are all responsible for these atrocities.
I didn't order any missions, I do not support US military or economic domination of the world ... but I am living comfortably in a country that has extracted great wealth and exerted great influence through operations like these, operations of terror in Africa, in the Middle East, in Latin America. The point to me is that whether I like it or not I am benefitting from US imperialism and corporate control. The West would not have the wealth & culture it would have were it not from centuries of theft and exploitation. We all know this much. For every murder committed in the process of this domination, I believe I am entrenched that much further within this matrix. I may find this matrix rancid (and I do), but there it is, and there am I, in it.
We won't be absolved until we are rid of them, until we have moved on a course to be rid of their ill effects, until our necessities and our comforts are not won through a system of exploitation. I'm not a murderer, but I am living well under the rule, protection, and economic production of murderers. For that, I at least, feel personally responsible.
Damien, I know that you and I feel the same about the war, about Bush, about US imperialism, so as to how we've come down on opposite sides here of this issue of personal guilt/responsibility ... well, I don't know! :O Maybe this is best discussed in conversation, over a coffee, but let me explain here first why I feel responsible, why I feel we are all responsible for these atrocities.
I didn't order any missions, I do not support US military or economic domination of the world ... but I am living comfortably in a country that has extracted great wealth and exerted great influence through operations like these, operations of terror in Africa, in the Middle East, in Latin America. The point to me is that whether I like it or not I am benefitting from US imperialism and corporate control. The West would not have the wealth & culture it would have were it not from centuries of theft and exploitation. We all know this much. For every murder committed in the process of this domination, I believe I am entrenched that much further within this matrix. I may find this matrix rancid (and I do), but there it is, and there am I, in it.
We won't be absolved until we are rid of them, until we have moved on a course to be rid of their ill effects, until our necessities and our comforts are not won through a system of exploitation. I'm not a murderer, but I am living well under the rule, protection, and economic production of murderers. For that, I at least, feel personally responsible.
Damien wrote:The only ones responsible for that – and for the deaths of the innocents in Somalia – are Bush and his cronies. Do you play any sports, Marco? – because you’re a great trash talker.
Well, I swim every day, won a few medals in skiing many years ago and was a reasonably good freestyle wrestler during my high school years (one could say that I still am!)... But Damien, I hoped that at least you could understand what I meant. Do I think that, say, Big Magilla with his love for Beulah Bondi is responsible for Iraq or Somalia? The easy answer, the politically correct one, would be no, of course. Yet I think that in a certain way he is. He wasn't on those planes, I know, he didn't push any button, and maybe he never voted for "Bush and his cronies" - still there are other, more, let's say, metaphorical levels of responsability. They are more subtle, more difficult to explain even, but they still exist.
As for Italians, we are responsible for many, many things Damien. But at least we admit it. We are often very critical about not only our Presidents (and in the past we had some very bad ones), but most importantly our own society and our culture. It's a kind of self-criticism which seems to be absent in the US - with exceptions, as I've admitted in my last posts. So yes, I am innocent. And Uri - not only a dear friend of mine but someone I know well and talk to almost every week - is also innocent, I know it for sure
Thank you Johnny Guitar for understanding what I meant. You and I haven't always got along well in the past, but let me tell you what a relief it is for me to see that someone here can perfectly understand what I try to say (in my admittedly broken English!) - and without using easy jokes or cheap insults. And I have to admit that by agreeing with me you also prove that I was at least partly wrong - that not all Americans are guilty and that there is still hope for your country. And I'm happy to be proven wrong. We Europeans sometimes think that it's impossible to find people like you in the US, that Americans are unable to think individually, etc. We are mistaken. Your post was a pleasant surprise.
Okay, I give up. I’ve racked my brains and have yet to figure out how I am (or Magilla or Penelope or DWs or Akash or any of us who is a U.S. citizen is) personally responsible. First of all, this was a secret, unannounced mission, of which none of us had prior knowledge, so we couldn’t have mobilized against it. Most of us here opposed the war on the Iraqi people and many of us actively protested it (some of us even opposed the supposed “good” war – the one on the Afghani people), but tose in America – and around the world – opposed to the war were summarily dismissed. So what do you want of us, Italiano? Even if someone had offed Bush, that would have just brought in Chaney? Your country joined in the war on Iraq, so you’re just as personally responsible for the deaths there as I am – I didn’t hear about any plans on your part to kill Berlusconi.
A dear friend of mine was part of a group attempting to blow up the U.S. Capitol in the mid-80s to protest American policies in Latin America. And what was the result? She served a decade in prison and Reagan’s death squads continued unabated.
Nor have I ever seen you hold Uri personally responsible for the deaths of Palestinian civilians. Yes I know Uri’s a friend of yours but here in America we don’t absolve someone from murder just because he’s a friend. Maybe it’s different in Italy or Lebanon or wherever you’re hanging out these days.
The United States is, at least in theory, a democracy. We tried our best to change things in 2004 – some by actively campaigning, others by financial donations, others protesting on the street. Bush and his policies still won The results of the recent congressional elections in 2006 were seen every pundit and observer as the demand by the American public to change the course in Iraq and at least begin to remove the troops. So what does the Boy King do? – like a petulant child he decides to INCREASE the number of troops in Iraq. The only ones responsible for that – and for the deaths of the innocents in Somalia – are Bush and his cronies. Do you play any sports, Marco? – because you’re a great trash talker.
A dear friend of mine was part of a group attempting to blow up the U.S. Capitol in the mid-80s to protest American policies in Latin America. And what was the result? She served a decade in prison and Reagan’s death squads continued unabated.
Nor have I ever seen you hold Uri personally responsible for the deaths of Palestinian civilians. Yes I know Uri’s a friend of yours but here in America we don’t absolve someone from murder just because he’s a friend. Maybe it’s different in Italy or Lebanon or wherever you’re hanging out these days.
The United States is, at least in theory, a democracy. We tried our best to change things in 2004 – some by actively campaigning, others by financial donations, others protesting on the street. Bush and his policies still won The results of the recent congressional elections in 2006 were seen every pundit and observer as the demand by the American public to change the course in Iraq and at least begin to remove the troops. So what does the Boy King do? – like a petulant child he decides to INCREASE the number of troops in Iraq. The only ones responsible for that – and for the deaths of the innocents in Somalia – are Bush and his cronies. Do you play any sports, Marco? – because you’re a great trash talker.
"Y'know, that's one of the things I like about Mitt Romney. He's been consistent since he changed his mind." -- Christine O'Donnell
Johnny Guitar wrote:I'm not saying Italiano's flawless, or that he's always right, or that he's even mostly right. He & I have no doubt aggravated each other to a great degree over the years. But here, now, I don't see what he's done that's so wrong and so horrifying ...
I'm not sure if you've kept up with any of Italiano's most recent posts (based on what you said earlier, I'd guess not), but I think the reason so many took exception to Italiano's post is that of late he seems to be more interested in grinding an axe than in actually having a meaningful discussion.
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Big Magilla
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I've never been a big fan of Suzanne Somers, but I liked her comment, "We lost a house. We didn't lose a child in Iraq."
I don't know what to make of this Somalia thing. The first news reports made it sound like we were doing something good, preventing terrorists from slaughtering thousands of innocents, but now I don't know. In any event the story of the wedding party of 30 being killed has yet to be substantiated.
What bothers me about Italiano's rebuke of Eric's little joke is that I keep thinking of the ending of Sullivan's Travels, released just after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Joel McCrea's line, as written by Preston Sturges, pays homage to laughter "it's the only thing some people have." I guess it's OK for Benigni to find humor in Nazi gas chambers, but not for us war weary Americans to find a jocular alternative to weeping at the daily reports of the dead and the maimed coming across our TVs.
I don't know what to make of this Somalia thing. The first news reports made it sound like we were doing something good, preventing terrorists from slaughtering thousands of innocents, but now I don't know. In any event the story of the wedding party of 30 being killed has yet to be substantiated.
What bothers me about Italiano's rebuke of Eric's little joke is that I keep thinking of the ending of Sullivan's Travels, released just after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Joel McCrea's line, as written by Preston Sturges, pays homage to laughter "it's the only thing some people have." I guess it's OK for Benigni to find humor in Nazi gas chambers, but not for us war weary Americans to find a jocular alternative to weeping at the daily reports of the dead and the maimed coming across our TVs.
Reza, this is what Marco is going on about:
Airstrikes in Somalia mark new foray
By ROBERT BURNS
Wed Jan 10, 7:46 AM ET
The American airstrike in Somalia, which officials say killed as many as 10 suspected terrorists, marked a new, open military foray by the United States into a part of the world that has been a chief concern in the war on terror.
The Horn of Africa, and particularly Somalia, has worried the U.S. military since America began a global campaign in 2001 to defeat al-Qaida, which had operated from havens inside Afghanistan until U.S. forces invaded in October of that year.
A short time later, the U.S. military established a special group of forces based in nearby Djibouti to work with Ethiopia, Kenya and other governments in the area to combat terrorists.
U.S. intelligence has believed for some time that it is dealing with a small group of al-Qaida operatives in the Horn of Africa, particularly when compared with the Afghan-Pakistani border region.
This week's attack was the first known U.S. military action inside Somalia since U.S. forces withdrew from that nation in the Horn of Africa in 1994, although U.S. forces have been stationed in neighboring Djibouti for several years.
The strike in southern Somalia on Monday killed five to 10 people believed to be associated with the al-Qaida network, two U.S. officials said. They discussed the matter only on condition of anonymity because of its sensitive nature.
Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman would not address whether military operations were continuing. Other defense officials speaking on condition of anonymity suggested that more strikes were either planned or under consideration.
An intelligence official who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the operation's sensitivity said that four or five others were wounded in the strike. U.S. officials were trying to figure out who was killed — a process that may require a mix of intelligence and getting personnel to the scene.
Somali officials reported larger numbers of casualties, but precise figures were not available. U.S. officials noted that there has been additional fighting, creating more casualties, since the U.S. airstrike on Monday.
Whitman confirmed that an AC-130 special operations aircraft attacked targets in Somalia on Monday, but he provided no information on whether any of the targeted individuals were killed.
In addition to the AC-130 gunship, which is armed with a 105mm howitzer that fires out the side of the aircraft as well as other guns, the aircraft carrier USS Dwight D. Eisenhower was deployed off the coast of Somalia. The carrier could be called on to launch F/A-18 or other strike aircraft within range of Somalia.
The assault on Monday was based on intelligence "that led us to believe we had principal al-Qaida leaders in an area where we could identify them and take action against them," said Whitman. "We're going to remain committed to reducing terrorist capabilities where and when we find them."
The United States has been trying to track the "big three" al-Qaida figures in East Africa for their roles in plots against the interests of the United States and its allies. They are Abu Talha al-Sudani, Fazul Abdullah Mohammed and Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan.
It was not immediately clear to the U.S. intelligence official if any of those three was hit in the attack.
Al-Qaida has used Africa as a base and target for its operations since its early days. Osama bin Laden, who masterminded the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, moved to Sudan in 1991 and established training camps and business structures there.
After U.S. troops moved into Somalia in 1992, bin Laden and other al-Qaida leaders established a Nairobi, Kenya, cell that provided weapons and support to Somali warlords opposing the U.S. forces there. The Sept. 11 Commission said that al-Qaida trainers were later heard boasting that their role in Somalia led to the shoot down of two Blackhawk helicopters in 1993, which led to the U.S. withdrawal from Somalia in 1994.
In 1998, al-Qaida launched the coordinated attack on U.S. embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, that killed 225 people, mostly Africans.
Airstrikes in Somalia mark new foray
By ROBERT BURNS
Wed Jan 10, 7:46 AM ET
The American airstrike in Somalia, which officials say killed as many as 10 suspected terrorists, marked a new, open military foray by the United States into a part of the world that has been a chief concern in the war on terror.
The Horn of Africa, and particularly Somalia, has worried the U.S. military since America began a global campaign in 2001 to defeat al-Qaida, which had operated from havens inside Afghanistan until U.S. forces invaded in October of that year.
A short time later, the U.S. military established a special group of forces based in nearby Djibouti to work with Ethiopia, Kenya and other governments in the area to combat terrorists.
U.S. intelligence has believed for some time that it is dealing with a small group of al-Qaida operatives in the Horn of Africa, particularly when compared with the Afghan-Pakistani border region.
This week's attack was the first known U.S. military action inside Somalia since U.S. forces withdrew from that nation in the Horn of Africa in 1994, although U.S. forces have been stationed in neighboring Djibouti for several years.
The strike in southern Somalia on Monday killed five to 10 people believed to be associated with the al-Qaida network, two U.S. officials said. They discussed the matter only on condition of anonymity because of its sensitive nature.
Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman would not address whether military operations were continuing. Other defense officials speaking on condition of anonymity suggested that more strikes were either planned or under consideration.
An intelligence official who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the operation's sensitivity said that four or five others were wounded in the strike. U.S. officials were trying to figure out who was killed — a process that may require a mix of intelligence and getting personnel to the scene.
Somali officials reported larger numbers of casualties, but precise figures were not available. U.S. officials noted that there has been additional fighting, creating more casualties, since the U.S. airstrike on Monday.
Whitman confirmed that an AC-130 special operations aircraft attacked targets in Somalia on Monday, but he provided no information on whether any of the targeted individuals were killed.
In addition to the AC-130 gunship, which is armed with a 105mm howitzer that fires out the side of the aircraft as well as other guns, the aircraft carrier USS Dwight D. Eisenhower was deployed off the coast of Somalia. The carrier could be called on to launch F/A-18 or other strike aircraft within range of Somalia.
The assault on Monday was based on intelligence "that led us to believe we had principal al-Qaida leaders in an area where we could identify them and take action against them," said Whitman. "We're going to remain committed to reducing terrorist capabilities where and when we find them."
The United States has been trying to track the "big three" al-Qaida figures in East Africa for their roles in plots against the interests of the United States and its allies. They are Abu Talha al-Sudani, Fazul Abdullah Mohammed and Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan.
It was not immediately clear to the U.S. intelligence official if any of those three was hit in the attack.
Al-Qaida has used Africa as a base and target for its operations since its early days. Osama bin Laden, who masterminded the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, moved to Sudan in 1991 and established training camps and business structures there.
After U.S. troops moved into Somalia in 1992, bin Laden and other al-Qaida leaders established a Nairobi, Kenya, cell that provided weapons and support to Somali warlords opposing the U.S. forces there. The Sept. 11 Commission said that al-Qaida trainers were later heard boasting that their role in Somalia led to the shoot down of two Blackhawk helicopters in 1993, which led to the U.S. withdrawal from Somalia in 1994.
In 1998, al-Qaida launched the coordinated attack on U.S. embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, that killed 225 people, mostly Africans.
"...it is the weak who are cruel, and...gentleness is only to be expected from the strong." - Leo Reston
"Cruelty might be very human, and it might be cultural, but it's not acceptable." - Jodie Foster
"Cruelty might be very human, and it might be cultural, but it's not acceptable." - Jodie Foster
Eric wrote:And we will surely be charged and tried in a court of law, one by one, the decent, well meaning, "intellectual" Americans on this board.
But we must first pause to mourn the loss of Suzanne Somers' mansion in Malibu. You understand.
Call me ignorant but I have no idea what's happening in Somalia and what Italiano is trying to say here. And frankly even if I did know what happened there, I'm sorry but it is REALLY not on my list of priority worries. There are enough problems to think about in my part of the world without having to feel all gooey eyed about trigger happy Bush inundating Somalia with yet more misery.
Eric
Your remark about Ms Sommers really made my day. Haven't laughed so much in ages. Thanks!
And Italiano, please take a chill pill as your rants are REALLY beginning to grate here on this Board. Your views may be valid but they are rather misplaced.
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Eric
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JG, I agree with your points, especially as I was juggling the Somalian story and the expected ramping up of 20,000 military reservists in Iraq against Somers and that ubiquitous piece of Apple tech-porn on my TV station's news Web site yesterday.
Also, I have to admit that I found something compelling -- and, in that, I guess something useful -- about Italiano's tack. If anyone else had started this thread, I doubt I'd have responded in the first place.
Also, I have to admit that I found something compelling -- and, in that, I guess something useful -- about Italiano's tack. If anyone else had started this thread, I doubt I'd have responded in the first place.
I believe that if any one of us were to meet Italiano face to face, either in the US or in his home country, we would be friendly to each other and have a good time over good food and drink. I would be disappointed if I were wrong about this.
The great thing in the world is not so much where we stand, as in what direction we are moving. It's faith in something and enthusiasm for something that makes a life worth living. Oliver Wendell Holmes