Campaign 2020

Sabin
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Re: Campaign 2020

Post by Sabin »

The New York Times reports that Bernie Sanders had a heart attack.
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Re: Campaign 2020

Post by Sabin »

Precious Doll wrote
I think politics has become so toxic worldwide that any candidate put forward tends to have negatives thrown against them. There is the saying that 'you can't please all of the people all of the time' which is so very true but politicans of all persuasions have rightly or wrongly so much shit thrown at them these days. I do think we have gotten to a point where no country is on the planet is 'governable' and we are in the process of entering a downward spiral of the likes none of us have ever likely actually experienced firsthand ourselves.
I just hate thinking that engagement is a bad thing. Sure, there problems with said engagement (chief among them: nuance is a rarity) but ... maybe it's for the best?

Precious Doll wrote
That is true but the problem younger candidates face is 'they don't have enough experience' and so on. (Personally from what I have observed the candidate that most impresses me is Kamala Harris but I doubt she will happen and at the end of the day it is the voters in the US who have the final say and whoever their choice is should be respected).
I don't think the problem with the younger candidate is that they don't have enough experience at all. I think there are much bigger problems but it is strange that none of the younger candidates are currently catching on. And the problem is less that they don't have experience but some of what they have is bad.

Since Election Day, 2016, before she even took office, Kamala Harris was the smart money for the next Democratic nominee. Sure, she is inexperienced but the Democratic Party has always done fairly well with younger candidates who demonstrate more a capacity to inspire change rather than showing their receipts. She is a very promising, strong politician. Her track record as California AG is a mixed bag. Without delving into specifics, she adopted some tough on crime stances that are very unpopular today. What's worse is that she proved herself entirely incapable of defending her choices when pressed by Tulsi Gabbard two debates ago. Since then, she's tried to regain her previous momentum but hasn't risen above single digits since. I have friend who is adamant that she will come back but I think her only chance is if one or more of the septuagenarian front-runners drops out. When I look at her, I still think I see a future President.

Pete Buttigieg was a completely unknown Mayor of South Bend, Indiana, who got a huge boost in popularity earlier this year by appearing on every single major news outlet available. To put it mildly, his very candidacy is a story: the first major millennial candidate, the first openly gay candidate, a veteran, a polyglot, a devout Christian, and in that moment seemingly the only calm, pleasing toned candidate. He spoke of ending divisions, coming together, and big picture stuff exactly how Obama did back in 2008. But the more he talked, the more it became clear his rhetoric was largely free of substance. He refused to answer any questions about specific policy. Which became the story. For me, it's not a deal-breaker but it just became so obvious that was his strategy. And the more that people looked into his tenure as Mayor, the more they found instances of racist policies and practices. Once the luster of his initial candidacy wore off, I think voters started to wonder "What of substance are we celebrating?" And now it looks like he hates being on the stage.

Beto O'Rourke, on the other hand, is a remarkable disappointment. He's a former Texas Rep who challenged Ted Cruz last year and came very close to winning. A tall, white, liberal Texan with a Spanish nickname and an Irish last name, who went viral speaking perfectly about race injustice in. America. Comparisons to another Robert Francis were bandied about. Liberal America fell in love with Beto during his Senate race. His Presidential race has been almost a disaster. His Vanity Fair article looked self-absorbed. His public speeches and appearances were laden with nervous tics, halting speeches, and awkward moments. There were no policy proposals. And he has no record of merit worth getting excited about. His campaign has turned a slight corner following the El Paso shootings. He's seemingly latched onto gun control as his big issue (going so far as to advocate for gun confiscation, saying "Hell, yeah, we're gonna take your [guns]") and his odds within the party have been ticking up slightly. Personally, I don't just think his campaign is over, I think unless someone is foolish enough to pick him as VP, his political career in Texas is over. How is he ever going to be elected anywhere in Texas with the phrase "Hell, yeah, we're gonna take your [guns]" following him?

There are other young people in the race. Cory Booker (too many bank ties), Julian Castro (seems too preppy and goes too negative), Tulsi Gabbard (possibly a spy). But as of this moment, it sure does seem like they are all running for Vice President. They seem to be the entirety of the running mate pool. That said, it's a strong, talented field and whoever is chosen as running mate to Biden, Sanders, or Warren will likely be viewed and vetted as more a possible Future President than any we've seen in some time.
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Re: Campaign 2020

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Heksagon wrote:The Democratic Party has plenty of qualified younger candidates, it feels insane to me that there's people as old as Biden, Sanders or even Warren polling so highly.

A political leader in their 80s is a huge unnecessary risk, as their health can deteriorate rapidly and they recover much worse from health problems that younger men can recover from easily. Reagan's memory problems were most likely accelerated by the attempted assassination on him, although he appeared to superficially recover from that.
That is true but the problem younger candidates face is 'they don't have enough experience' and so on. (Personally from what I have observed the candidate that most impresses me is Kamala Harris but I doubt she will happen and at the end of the day it is the voters in the US who have the final say and whoever their choice is should be respected).

I think politics has become so toxic worldwide that any candidate put forward tends to have negatives thrown against them. There is the saying that 'you can't please all of the people all of the time' which is so very true but politicans of all persuasions have rightly or wrongly so much shit thrown at them these days. I do think we have gotten to a point where no country is on the planet is 'governable' and we are in the process of entering a downward spiral of the likes none of us have ever likely actually experienced firsthand ourselves.

One only has to look at the environmental crisis facing the planet and that little progress that is being made on a Global level to what is the greatest threat ever to all life on the planet, though as I am from the school of thought that we have already entered the era of the 'sixth great extinction' - this one man made - I'm beyond the point of not caring but I don't have children, etc so its an easy out for me. I can't even begin to imagine the fear faced by parents for their children and for younger people for their futures on this degrading planet we all share.

Having said all that I'm a pessimist at heart and for most of my life have viewed the future with doom and gloom, however nearly 30 years ago with the fall of the Berlin Wall I did really think things might get better worldwide but they didn't. Still there is a saying 'Live as if you were going to die tomorrow but work as if you were going to live forever'. Made sense decades ago when I heard it but nowadays most people seem to only work for the benefit on the 1% filthy rich.
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Re: Campaign 2020

Post by Heksagon »

The Democratic Party has plenty of qualified younger candidates, it feels insane to me that there's people as old as Biden, Sanders or even Warren polling so highly.

A political leader in their 80s is a huge unnecessary risk, as their health can deteriorate rapidly and they recover much worse from health problems that younger men can recover from easily. Reagan's memory problems were most likely accelerated by the attempted assassination on him, although he appeared to superficially recover from that.
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Re: Campaign 2020

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Any kind of medical procedure that a candidate, or sitting leader, etc has is always going to be speculated on by the press and public and used against them to some degree by some people. Unless someone has something terminal it really should have little impact on their ability to undertake their role once they have recovered, which will vary to a number of factors. Unless a person announced their retirement (for whatever reason) they are still very much in the game.
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Re: Campaign 2020

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Dick Cheney had a stent put in, also following chest pain, while he was a vice-presidential candidate. That certainly didn’t stop him from doing his job, though I wish something would have stopped him. I’ve had two angiograms that included stent placement. That type of procedure is NOT traumatizing to the body the way cut-you-open surgeries are. At the last one I went back to work almost immediately. Of course the facts of it won’t get in the way of people trying to advance their political agenda, which I think is Sabin’s point. We’re living in a very reactive age, which serves no one except shady opportunists (who are unfortunately not in short supply).
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Re: Campaign 2020

Post by Sabin »

Precious Doll wrote
But Sanders is nearly 80 and surgery, even minor, is more risky with age and takes longer to recover from.
I've been trying to figure out how to respond to this statement. Instead I'll just relay a more generalized concern I'm having these days...

On the one hand, yeah, being close to eighty and getting any form of surgery is risky. It's on Bernie Sanders to reassure voters about his health or leave the race. On the other hand, this is the most coverage he's received thus far and I'm reading articles like "Is this the end of his campaign?" "Beginning of the end?" "Did Bernie Sanders actually have a heart attack?" If Joe Biden or Elizabeth Warren went in for heart stents, would this be happening quite like this? I'm sorry, I don't think it would.

Anyway, I think it's valid to question his health and whether or not he is healthy enough to run a campaign and serve office.
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Re: Campaign 2020

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Greg wrote:The thing with Sanders is having stents can be a fairly routine surgery. I felt fine within a week after I had mine, and, I never even had a scar, just some black-blue-and-yellow on my wrist that completely went away in about a month.
But Sanders is nearly 80 and surgery, even minor, is more risky with age and takes longer to recover from.
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Re: Campaign 2020

Post by Greg »

The thing with Sanders is having stents can be a fairly routine surgery. I felt fine within a week after I had mine, and, I never even had a scar, just some black-blue-and-yellow on my wrist that completely went away in about a month.
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Re: Campaign 2020

Post by Big Magilla »

Ay yi yi.

I think everyone here respects Bernie not just as a person but as one of the great voices in the Senate for many years. We just don't think he'd make as a good a president as some do.

As for Kennedy, it was a different time. People's illnesses were not generally revealed to the public, FDR's polio being a rare exception. Affairs were hushed up through George H.W. Bush whose mistress before and during his presidency was not revealed until years later.

The biggest smear against Kennedy was the wildly held belief that as a Roman Catholic he would be loyal to the Pope, not the Constitution. That same argument and his stance against Prohibition derailed Alfred E. Smith's chances in 1924 but he was the Democratic nominee in 1928, winning the large cities but losing the rural vote to Herbert Hoover. Sound familiar?
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Re: Campaign 2020

Post by Sabin »

Sonic Youth wrote
That's pathetic, but I guess unavoidable.

Everyone's trying to make a case that this proves one can be too old to run for president, and I think that's a valid argument. But it also speaks to how absurd the campaigning process is. Besides being much too long, it's too grueling. It should not be a boot camp.
I think age is a valid argument as well. But your second point has been something I've been thinking about for a few years now. Of course, John F. Kennedy did not announce his campaign until January of 1960. With an additional year, would we have learned about his Addison's disease? His affairs? God knows what else. And one's feelings about that might say more about how they feel about Kennedy rather than the political process.

There's a C-Span video I watched by a historian named Richard Norton Smith called "Measuring Presidential Failure" from 2016. He said something to the effect of "We are unwittingly creating a political process that renders the candidate so beaten and battered that they might incapable of doing the job once they get it."

The election is more than a year from now and already we have candidates going in for heart surgery.
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Re: Campaign 2020

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Sabin wrote:
Sonic Youth wrote
Absolutely. The first part of your sentence was totally unnecessary. I think everyone here wishes him a swift recovery regardless.
I would really, really like to think the first part of that sentence is totally unnecessary but I've yet to post that sentiment anywhere else without reading something truly vicious.
That's pathetic, but I guess unavoidable.

Everyone's trying to make a case that this proves one can be too old to run for president, and I think that's a valid argument. But it also speaks to how absurd the campaigning process is. Besides being much too long, it's too grueling. It should not be a boot camp.
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Re: Campaign 2020

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Sonic Youth wrote
Absolutely. The first part of your sentence was totally unnecessary. I think everyone here wishes him a swift recovery regardless.
I would really, really like to think the first part of that sentence is totally unnecessary but I've yet to post that sentiment anywhere else without reading something truly vicious.
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Re: Campaign 2020

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Sabin wrote:I know he’s not everyone’s favorite on this board but wishing a swift recovery to Bernie Sanders.
Absolutely. The first part of your sentence was totally unnecessary. I think everyone here wishes him a swift recovery regardless.

I was about to say something else, but do I even need to? You're all thinking the same thing, I'm sure.
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Re: Campaign 2020

Post by Sabin »

I know he’s not everyone’s favorite on this board but wishing a swift recovery to Bernie Sanders.
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