Everything Is Great and Amazing

Mister Tee
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Re: Everything Is Great and Amazing

Postby Mister Tee » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:45 pm

So...how was Infrastructure Week for everybody else?

It feels like this week was a major step along the way of getting out of this mess. Mueller's indictments seemed to me elegantly presented: centered all around Russians -- because who in Trump's orbit could dare object to that? -- and offering soothing (if meaningless) words like "unwitting" about Trump and company, so they couldn't make any witch-hunt claim. But at the same time they made clear the election was interfered with, that the interference was demonstrably pro-Trump and anti-Hillary (with a touch of pro-Bernie/Stein when it helped torpedo Hillary), and offering the clear possibility of much more to come. "The Russians interfered" is established narrative now, and should make it impossible for Trump to scuttle the investigation, or for his GOP enablers to help along those lines, without serious repercussions from the electorate.

An electorate that is already loaded for bear, as evidenced by continuing results from special elections (one in Florida most recently -- I think it was this week, but life moves so fast I can't truly recall), and will only be emboldened by the fierce reaction of those Parkland students. It's been easy, in recent times, to submit to hopelessness over these gun massacres -- "if killing those kids at Sandy Hook didn't make a difference, what could?" is a sentence I presume we've all heard a thousand times. But we didn't allow for the fact that the surviving Sandy Hook students were too young to speak for themselves, and thus couldn't offer the impact of furious personal testimony. These students are clearly beyond-determined, and, from what I've heard, sufficiently educated to hold their own in argument. I'm uncharacteristically optimistic of their making a difference.

Particularly if the steady reports turn out true, and Mueller is truly investigating the NRA for funneling Russian money into GOP campaigns in 2016. The amount of money the NRA pumped in that year -- over 6 times what it had given just 6-8 years earlier -- makes it a serious question. If this were found to be true, the NRA could be done up on RICO charges, and stripped of its assets. Can you imagine the damage losing such cash flow would do to the Republican prospects in November, over and above what else is going on?

All of which is why I think we may one day look back at this week and see it as a decisive moment in our climb-back from the nightmare we've been living.


'

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Re: Everything Is Great and Amazing

Postby Big Magilla » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:15 pm

Of course this is the Fox headline:

"There is no allegation in the indictment that the charged conduct altered the outcome of the 2016 election.”
- Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein
“‎Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.” - Voltaire

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Re: Everything Is Great and Amazing

Postby Mister Tee » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:56 pm

For those who've been wondering if Bob Mueller was actually going to come up with anything...I'd say it's on.

It was fascinating watching Rosenstein's press conference announcing the indictments. He kept answering all questions -- e.g., "does this mean no Trump people wittingly cooperated?" -- with some version of "in these indictments..." I kept hearing Saoirse Ronan's voice -- "That we KNOW of"

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Re: Everything Is Great and Amazing

Postby criddic3 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:38 pm

Sabin wrote:Actually, I misspoke. criddic3, I want you to hear me out...

You say:
criddic3 wrote
There are still plenty of Republicans, both in office and in the rank & file, who are vocally opposed to President Trump. Fighting from within is the only good option short of splitting the party in two.


1) Who cares about splitting the party in two when both sides are going down with the ship? You're losing states in the reddest states in the union. You're on the Titanic. Who cares about preserving the hull or whatever?

2) Unless tragedy befalls him, the only people who can do anything about President Trump is the Republican Party. Fifty years from now, what chapter would you rather read? "Under President Trump, Republicans suffered large defeats in both houses..." or "In an unprecedented move, the Republican party stood up to President Trump and moved to impeach him, costing them a base of support, but they were able to regroup under President Pence and rally behind him in his bid for reelection?" What would make you proud?

3) I want to go back to "splitting the party in two." I understand why in some ways that's bad for your party. But every day you keep this ship afloat, more Holocaust deniers and race-baiters jump aboard. This is only happening with the Republican party. More and more white supremacists look at the Republican party and like what it has to offer them. I want to underline that last sentence because whatever words that your elected Republicans are saying against Trump's message isn't being heard by the the worst people our country has to offer. In your heart, do you honestly think once Trump is out, the party will go back to the simpler, more moderate days of...The Tea Party? The neo-cons?

I want you to ask yourself something: who will run for office in your party after all the Holocaust deniers have their shot? What comes next?

4) Finally, on a personal note, I'm a Jew. My grandmother is a Holocaust survivor. Do you think there's a chance I would remain in the Democratic Party if half of them supported an anti-Semitic candidate? If a third of them did? Or if they stood behind a Holocaust denier? We all have a line we cannot cross with the rank and file. Where's yours, dude? When do you say "This party isn't for me anymore"?


That's a lot to unravel. Should I take them one by one or simply react to your overall comment?

I am particularly appalled by the lack of outrage in the party that people like Arthur Jones of Illinois and Kris Kobach of Kansas are running. Jones is part of an unsettling trend of Holocaust deniers and race-baiters, as you mentioned, that are running unopposed in their districts. Kobach is a hardliner on immigration in a way that will eventually lose the party more support than it gains. He is running for Governor, though he could lose the primary to the incumbent, former Lt. Governor Jeff Colyer. Even if my paternal father's family hadn't been Jewish and my stepfather didn't come from a mixed Jewish/Catholic family, I'd be disturbed by this. Republicans were traditionally against discrimination and was founded by abolitionists in the 1850s. That legacy has been eroding for some time now, but I never thought I'd see such a lack of any kind of real reaction to what is going on now.

Having Trump removed from office or seeing Trump soundly rejected in the midterms? Why not both?? If Republicans lose both houses of Congress (not in any way guaranteed), Trump could very well be impeached/convicted and Pence would start out as a lame-duck heading towards a dicey 2020 election.

In that scenario I really don't know what happens to the party. The same voters who liked Trump will be there. Either they will be so angered by Trump's removal that they vote for a similar candidate in 2020 or they become so embarrassed by his failure that they stay home. If they stay home and we get a worthwhile candidate, will that be enough in the general? And if it is, what would that mean for the image of the party? Does the Trump experiment become a wound that heals over time or is there a larger problem that can't be fixed overnight??
"If you can't stand the nut on the left and you can't stand the nut on the right, go for the Johnson,” Jonathan S. Bush (10/21/2016)

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Re: Everything Is Great and Amazing

Postby Greg » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:45 pm

I am assuming there is now no interest in having Trump's military parade retrace the route of the World War II victory parade. Way too close too Wall Street.
You can resist an invading army; you cannot resist an idea whose time has come.

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Re: Everything Is Great and Amazing

Postby Sabin » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:55 pm

Actually, I misspoke. criddic3, I want you to hear me out...

You say:
criddic3 wrote
There are still plenty of Republicans, both in office and in the rank & file, who are vocally opposed to President Trump. Fighting from within is the only good option short of splitting the party in two.

1) Who cares about splitting the party in two when both sides are going down with the ship? You're losing states in the reddest states in the union. You're on the Titanic. Who cares about preserving the hull or whatever?

2) Unless tragedy befalls him, the only people who can do anything about President Trump is the Republican Party. Fifty years from now, what chapter would you rather read? "Under President Trump, Republicans suffered large defeats in both houses..." or "In an unprecedented move, the Republican party stood up to President Trump and moved to impeach him, costing them a base of support, but they were able to regroup under President Pence and rally behind him in his bid for reelection?" What would make you proud?

3) I want to go back to "splitting the party in two." I understand why in some ways that's bad for your party. But every day you keep this ship afloat, more Holocaust deniers and race-baiters jump aboard. This is only happening with the Republican party. More and more white supremacists look at the Republican party and like what it has to offer them. I want to underline that last sentence because whatever words that your elected Republicans are saying against Trump's message isn't being heard by the the worst people our country has to offer. In your heart, do you honestly think once Trump is out, the party will go back to the simpler, more moderate days of...The Tea Party? The neo-cons?

I want you to ask yourself something: who will run for office in your party after all the Holocaust deniers have their shot? What comes next?

4) Finally, on a personal note, I'm a Jew. My grandmother is a Holocaust survivor. Do you think there's a chance I would remain in the Democratic Party if half of them supported an anti-Semitic candidate? If a third of them did? Or if they stood behind a Holocaust denier? We all have a line we cannot cross with the rank and file. Where's yours, dude? When do you say "This party isn't for me anymore"?
"If you are marching with white nationalists, you are by definition not a very nice person. If Malala Yousafzai had taken part in that rally, you'd have to say 'Okay, I guess Malala sucks now.'" ~ John Oliver

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Re: Everything Is Great and Amazing

Postby flipp525 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:44 am

Sabin wrote:
criddic3 wrote
There are still plenty of Republicans, both in office and in the rank & file, who are vocally opposed to President Trump. Fighting from within is the only good option short of splitting the party in two.

Being vocally opposed to President Trump while insisting he remain in office is pretty meaningless though, right?

Exactly, it’s beyond meaningless. Especially when they all vote with him lock-step 100% of the time.

Where are these rank and file resisting Republicans at the moment when Trump has failed to implement the Russia sanctions that were voted on by both the House and Senate then subsequently signed into law by L’Orange himself? I’d like an answer on that one, criddic. To be a Republican now, even one that opposes his policies in private yet silently acquiesces to everything his Administration is doing, is to be a worthless conspirator. History will not look kindly at them.
Last edited by flipp525 on Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Everything Is Great and Amazing

Postby Sabin » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:46 am

criddic3 wrote
There are still plenty of Republicans, both in office and in the rank & file, who are vocally opposed to President Trump. Fighting from within is the only good option short of splitting the party in two.

Being vocally opposed to President Trump while insisting he remain in office is pretty meaningless though, right?
"If you are marching with white nationalists, you are by definition not a very nice person. If Malala Yousafzai had taken part in that rally, you'd have to say 'Okay, I guess Malala sucks now.'" ~ John Oliver

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Re: Everything Is Great and Amazing

Postby criddic3 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:05 pm

flipp525 wrote:
criddic3 wrote:I don't think it's too late to separate from Trump and if I were in office I would do my best to save the party.

How delightfully fantasy-like. In the real world, this is not the case at all. Trump and the entire GOP are one in the same now.

Where have you been?


There are still plenty of Republicans, both in office and in the rank & file, who are vocally opposed to President Trump. Fighting from within is the only good option short of splitting the party in two.
"If you can't stand the nut on the left and you can't stand the nut on the right, go for the Johnson,” Jonathan S. Bush (10/21/2016)

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Re: Everything Is Great and Amazing

Postby flipp525 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:16 pm

criddic3 wrote:I don't think it's too late to separate from Trump and if I were in office I would do my best to save the party.

How delightfully fantasy-like. In the real world, this is not the case at all. Trump and the entire GOP are one in the same now.

Where have you been?
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Re: Everything Is Great and Amazing

Postby Precious Doll » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:48 am

"I have no interest in all of that. I find that all tabloid stupidity" Woody Allen, The Guardian, 2014, in response to his adopted daughter's allegations.

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Re: Everything Is Great and Amazing

Postby Okri » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:02 pm

Honestly, it most assuredly is.

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Re: Everything Is Great and Amazing

Postby criddic3 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:26 pm

I don't think it's too late to separate from Trump and if I were in office I would do my best to save the party.
"If you can't stand the nut on the left and you can't stand the nut on the right, go for the Johnson,” Jonathan S. Bush (10/21/2016)

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Re: Everything Is Great and Amazing

Postby Sabin » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:23 pm

Mister Tee wrote
A train carrying GOP Congressfolk collides with a garbage truck. Holy metaphor, Batman! Way too on the nose.

I stole your joke and texted it to a few friends of mine. All of their responses were "That's not funny. The driver died." We're in a fun new world...

But moving on...

Before I respond, something I noticed from Bernie's response to Trump's SOTU was that he brought up Russia. Democrats on the far left consider Russia to be massively overstated. To me, that was clear evidence that he is interested in appealing to a broader swath of voters. I'm reminded of a Lee Atwater quote: "There's a tiny boat in the middle of the ocean, and in that boat is everybody the American people can fathom as their President. Michael Dukakis was never in the boat." I love Bernie, but he's not in the boat. And I've been reading a bit about Jimmy Carter's administration and I worry about similar inflexibilities.

Mister Tee wrote
4) Sabin is correct, that the best Dem formula for victory is to get the urban liberals plus African-Americans -- the Obama coalition. But this ignores the fact that Sanders did TERRIBLY with black voters in 2016. Yes, they say in polling they'll vote for him over Trump (Duh!), but there's no sign he'll appeal to them in primaries, or turn them out in big numbers in the general;

I agree to points one through three...

But here, I think Bernie had three things working against him: 1) he didn't run a good campaign (which is to say, he didn't run to win until in many ways he'd already lost), 2) he wasn't great at speaking to people of color, and 3) he was up against the wife of "The First Black President." In 2020, he won't be. He'll be running against how many Democrats? Ten? Twenty? And he has much wider name recognition than he did before. I think you're underestimating how well Bernie Sanders stands to do in the primaries.

The general? That's a different story. But it is interesting that you're so bullish on Democratic chances but if it happens to be Bernie, you think the same people who have been turning out in droves would stay at home.


Mister Tee wrote
5) like okri and others, I say, if it's time to move on from Hillary (who, you know, got by far the most votes in 2016, even with Russia, the FBI and much of the news media crippling her), it's also time to let go of the guy she trounced in the primaries. New generation, please.

Sounds great. I'll feel a lot more comfortable when I know who we got.
"If you are marching with white nationalists, you are by definition not a very nice person. If Malala Yousafzai had taken part in that rally, you'd have to say 'Okay, I guess Malala sucks now.'" ~ John Oliver

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Re: Everything Is Great and Amazing

Postby Mister Tee » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:02 pm

I've been mostly absent from this thread, but, to catch up on a number of things raised, and also to address new stuff:

A train carrying GOP Congressfolk collides with a garbage truck. Holy metaphor, Batman! Way too on the nose.

Trey Gowdy announces he's retiring, making him the eleventy-millionth chairman to do so. But, still, we'll hear all year that the Democrats are blowing it, and Pubs are going to make a strong comeback. I only they could get Republicans to believe that.

I blithely skipped the State of the Union last night (watched an old movie called The Cheaters, a bizarre mash-up of My Man Godfrey and The Bishop's Wife, which is a delightful mess), but I did tune in for Joe Kennedy's speech. My feeling is, if his name was Joe Blank from Limbo, I'd still be saying, Who is this kid? -- he's really got it. Beautifully crafted, succinct summation of the Democratic approach, delivered with credible earnestness. Steve Schmidt on MSNBC said it was the best SOTU response he could remember, and I concur.

A measure of his success: Russian bots were all over Twitter last night saying "We don't need dynasties", suggesting he scares them. As far as dynasties: a member of his family last ran for president 38 years ago. Is there a statute of limitations, after which a family member can run for higher office without being hit with that stupid claim? (Asking with FDR in mind.)

I have zero worry about Robert Mueller resigning. Trump attempting to fire him? -- that's another matter, and such an action would hasten the constitutional crisis we're edging toward. But Mueller leave on his own? No frickin' way.

To Sabin's question about Korean reunification: 1) it's not happening; 2) if it were to miraculously come about, it wouldn't redound to Trump's credit, because he'd have had nothing to do with it.

As for Bernie Sanders: 1) he's way too old; 2) he's never faced a national attack ad (Hillary treated him with kid gloves throughout 2016), meaning his good approval numbers are seriously flimsy -- keep in mind: Hillary had great approvals in 2014, but relentless "emails!" coverage sabotaged her by Election Day; 3) there's no evidence he has any grasp of governing, as opposed to sloganing; I agree with plenty of his analysis of what's wrong, but see no plan to improve things other than "I'll demand they do it and they will"; 4) Sabin is correct, that the best Dem formula for victory is to get the urban liberals plus African-Americans -- the Obama coalition. But this ignores the fact that Sanders did TERRIBLY with black voters in 2016. Yes, they say in polling they'll vote for him over Trump (Duh!), but there's no sign he'll appeal to them in primaries, or turn them out in big numbers in the general; 5) like okri and others, I say, if it's time to move on from Hillary (who, you know, got by far the most votes in 2016, even with Russia, the FBI and much of the news media crippling her), it's also time to let go of the guy she trounced in the primaries. New generation, please.


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