Web of Sex Scandals

Uri
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Post by Uri »

Reza, are you aware that every time you bring up that derogatory term (and you used it twice in your last, very short post) you unnecessarily add insult to injury?
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Post by Reza »

ITALIANO wrote:
Sonic Youth wrote:
What did you want me to answer, anyway? Wouldn't it have been better if Weinstein's victims came forward at the time rather than waited years later? Was that it? Putting aside that some DID come forward (and it didn't do them any good), why don't you Google it instead of asking me? Assuming you weren't asking in bad faith, which I doubt, you'll find lots of well-researched, readily available articles as to why women don't come forward. If that's not good enough, talk to a rape crisis counselor.
That wasn't my only point, of course. And I know perfectly well that SOME women even today don't have the strength to come forward right after a rape, and I understand that, in a way. But isn't it a fact Sonic Touth, that many women, thank God, DO? Many, ok? So stop with your absurd fairy-taleish theories. It IS possible and i only said that it would have been better if they had done that, rather than keeping to see him, work with him, in sone cases being intimate with him, for years, or if some who knew HAD TALKED before. It IS possible and it happens. It happens even with the mafia in Sicily, Sonic Youth, and they can even KILL, ok? Sorry for your favorite movie stars, but even ordinary women do that. Oh mamma mia... You really repeat your two or thee pre-recorded notions endlessly.
Sonic Youth wrote: I think it's fair to say that flipp and I are not in each other's mutual admiration society. But what Reza said to him may have been the lowest thing I've seen anyone say to anybody here. And I've received (and said) my fair share.
???

What did Reza say to FlipP?! And why, like Uri, are you oily trying to imply that I am in some way connected with that, or that I agree with him? No, my dear Sonic Youth, this won't work. Now tell me exactly when and where this happened. I am waiting. Because either you don't understand anything, or YOU are in bad faith. And I don't like that.
flipp said I had once upon a time called someone who had been raped a slut.

I distinctly recall calling flipp a slut many years ago but I swear I had no idea he had been attacked. I apologised below. I actually didn't know of any trauma he had gone through.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Post by ITALIANO »

Sonic Youth wrote:
What did you want me to answer, anyway? Wouldn't it have been better if Weinstein's victims came forward at the time rather than waited years later? Was that it? Putting aside that some DID come forward (and it didn't do them any good), why don't you Google it instead of asking me? Assuming you weren't asking in bad faith, which I doubt, you'll find lots of well-researched, readily available articles as to why women don't come forward. If that's not good enough, talk to a rape crisis counselor.
That wasn't my only point, of course. And I know perfectly well that SOME women even today don't have the strength to come forward right after a rape, and I understand that, in a way. But isn't it a fact Sonic Touth, that many women, thank God, DO? Many, ok? So stop with your absurd fairy-taleish theories. It IS possible and i only said that it would have been better if they had done that, rather than keeping to see him, work with him, in sone cases being intimate with him, for years, or if some who knew HAD TALKED before. It IS possible and it happens. It happens even with the mafia in Sicily, Sonic Youth, and they can even KILL, ok? Sorry for your favorite movie stars, but even ordinary women do that. Oh mamma mia... You really repeat your two or thee pre-recorded notions endlessly.
Sonic Youth wrote: I think it's fair to say that flipp and I are not in each other's mutual admiration society. But what Reza said to him may have been the lowest thing I've seen anyone say to anybody here. And I've received (and said) my fair share.
???

What did Reza say to FlipP?! And why, like Uri, are you oily trying to imply that I am in some way connected with that, or that I agree with him? No, my dear Sonic Youth, this won't work. Now tell me exactly when and where this happened. I am waiting. Because either you don't understand anything, or YOU are in bad faith. And I don't like that.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Post by Sabin »

Sonic Youth wrote
Sabin, why did you erase your post? I thought you were right on, and I wrote a big response which now has no connection to anything.
Because I hadn't read the dialogue between Flipp and Reza when I posted, and I thought it deserved to play out without my statement taking us off topic.

But if I'm being more honest, part of me thought it was going to just fall on deaf ears. This place is more fearful and apprehensive than my Facebook feed, and I have people on there that I went to Catholic High School with in Phoenix, Arizona in the 1990's. And it's such a shame because this is the place where over the course of almost twenty years my taste in film was molded, and politically I've come of age. I don't have anything else to add to what you said (because I took my post down in the first place) but I'm really disappointed that more than half of the people here look disdainfully at a movement that over the last year has toppled basically only terrible men, and seem terrified about the backlash and "where it will end?"

Actually, I do have one thing to add to the conversation that is a direct rebuke to Reza's statements about this new, scary world we are about to enter where men can't wink at women without fearing comeuppance. Forgive me from jumping from women being sexually harassed to the world of dating. I've been on online dating platforms for about four years now. It's completely changed my life for the better. I have a new girlfriend. My success with online dating can be attributed to one thing: asking for a date at a specific time and place. The bar for women is so low, guys. I can't even explain it. Either men are complete douches sending hateful, hateful messages at random like "You wanna get raped tonight?" (my girlfriend has screengrabs of these messages) or they don't take the initiative and messages drag out forever. To any man who is terrified that their role in society is diminished by the #MeToo movement or that the Era of Masculinity is over, I can't tell you how wrong you are. It's actually the opposite. I've dated beautiful women because I've messaged the following: "You seem really interesting. I'd like to see if we have something in common. Would you like to get a drink at --- at 9pm on Wednesday?" I've done that before #MeToo and I've done it after #MeToo. I am not concerned about women giving men the benefit of the doubt. I like how Amber Tamblyn put it. "Why do we need to talk about the redemption of men when we are right in the middle of the salvation of women?"
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Post by Precious Doll »

Excellent opinion piece of Matt Damon:

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/celebri ... 077qp.html

I think one of the things Damon clearly suffers from is privileged white male syndrome.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Post by Sonic Youth »

ITALIANO wrote: As for me being pro-rape, you lately wrote that you had changed your mind and that you agree with my accusers (not in this thread). Even just saying "I am sorry, ITALIANO" would have been more honorable than always avoiding my points. But ok, never mind.
No, I never said that either.

What exactly do you want from me that you keep insisting I engage with you and your "points"? You've already said I'm a mediocrity and that I speak in "pre-recorded formulas". Why, then, are you asking again and again for an involved conversation with me? It clearly wouldn't benefit either one of us.

What did you want me to answer, anyway? Wouldn't it have been better if Weinstein's victims came forward at the time rather than waited years later? Was that it? Putting aside that some DID come forward (and it didn't do them any good), why don't you Google it instead of asking me? Assuming you weren't asking in bad faith, which I doubt, you'll find lots of well-researched, readily available articles as to why women don't come forward. If that's not good enough, talk to a rape crisis counselor.

I think it's fair to say that flipp and I are not in each other's mutual admiration society. But what Reza said to him may have been the lowest thing I've seen anyone say to anybody here. And I've received (and said) my fair share.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Post by Sonic Youth »

Sabin, why did you erase your post? I thought you were right on, and I wrote a big response which now has no connection to anything.

Well, Sabin disagreed with Reza's belief that "we're going to enter an era where people are afraid to wink at each other"..... Of course we're not going to, and this is the same stale, cliched backlash that always comes up whenever current events like these take prominence. People said this during the Anita Hill hearings back in 1991, they said it throughout the 1990s when the issue of date rape was prevalent, they said it a few years ago when media reports of campus rapes and universities internal handling of such allegations were at a peak, and they're saying it now. It didn't happen then, it hasn't happened yet, and everyone should se that it's not going to happen now. Oh sure, maybe there are some INDIVIDUAL instances when it has happened, but hasn't that always been the case anyway? This is one of the typical fallback arguments, that somehow as a result of all this mass outrage our culture is going to regress to a hollow-eyed asexuality, too frightened and emasculated to say or do anything. It's a bizarre phobia, not least because it NEVER HAPPENS, but regardless, it's as if emasculation is the greatest evil we must steel ourselves against and fight. It's like, given the choice between women being raped, assaulted, groped, demeaned, demoralized and denied fair employment and compensation for their work and merits; and cultural emasculation.... well, it's not that we LIKE it when women are raped, but the alternative is worse because you're trying to deny the male animal's natural urges, and who knows what unintended consequences will transpire? Sounds like I'm exaggerating, right? I'm not.

In fact, this board is practically a microcosm of the reactionary public (only more so, because I don't think we've gotten to the reactionary stage... yet). All the different manifestations of counter-reaction is right here. Here's the "now men will be too scared to flirt with women", there's the "why didn't the women come forward", here's the "everyone is automatically believing these women!" (these hundreds - or maybe by now it's thousands - of women, I should add), there's the "There's too many accusers all of a sudden. Something suspicious is going on!" and everywhere is the Salem witch trials, Salem witch trials, Salem witch trials, which happened as recently as 325 years ago, how soon we forget! And before Matt Damon said “You know, there’s a difference between, you know, patting someone on the butt and rape or child molestation, right?” (yes, fool, I think everyone knows that), Italiano (see? I gave your name.) preceded that weeks ago with a nearly identical comment. And now the Bible has been invoked, as if this were Alabama two weeks ago. Is everyone seriously blocking the actual stories that have come to light? All these women and men are coming forward saying they've been raped, grabbed, threatened, locked in rooms forced to watch someone masturbate in front of them, taken advantage of when they were 14 years old (and this just from the entertainment industry and the political realm. We haven't even yet heard the stories from household servants, hotel maids and various minimum wage employees in general), and many have winked, nodded and covered it up, or worse, aided and abetted... and we're focusing instead on bogeymen scenarios where the poor, falsely accused men are in grave danger? There is an epidemic of institutionalized crimes that has been going on forever, but we're going to play ostrich to all that on behalf of the status quo? The perspective here is skewed, to say the least.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Post by Reza »

Uri wrote:
Reza wrote:Yes, there should ideally be no sexual harrassment but it is a direct result of the sexual revolution your society craved and fought for.
Really? That's your ultimate argument?/quote]

Yes, it must be because I'm "repugnant".

:)
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Post by Reza »

OscarGuy wrote:Reza doubles down on the sexism. Thanks for highlighting that comment, Uri. I must have skimmed over that. That is truly a repugnant thing to say.
:)
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Post by Okri »

Damon: ""We're in this watershed moment, and it's great, but I think one thing that's not being talked about is there are a whole s---load of guys — the preponderance of men I've worked with — who don't do this kind of thing and whose lives aren't going to be affected,""

Yes. We're literally not talking about #NotAllMen.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Post by OscarGuy »

Reza doubles down on the sexism. Thanks for highlighting that comment, Uri. I must have skimmed over that. That is truly a repugnant thing to say.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Post by ITALIANO »

Uri wrote:
Reza wrote:Yes, there should ideally be no sexual harrassment but it is a direct result of the sexual revolution your society craved and fought for.
Really? That's your ultimate argument?

Marco?
Marco what? Are you implying that I agree with that? Then you still don't understand what I said Uri, sorry... :)
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Post by Uri »

Reza wrote:Yes, there should ideally be no sexual harrassment but it is a direct result of the sexual revolution your society craved and fought for.
Really? That's your ultimate argument?

Marco?
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Post by Reza »

ITALIANO wrote:
OscarGuy wrote:
It's a lesson certain people on this board need to learn.
Names please.
Well certainly prim Phillip for one lol
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Post by Reza »

OscarGuy wrote:What Okri MEANT was that Damon is inserting his foot in his mouth. This isn't about freedom of speech or Puritanism or racism. It's about speaking out of turn. It's about learning to speak with consideration and moderation, not saying whatever fool thing comes into your mind. All he's doing, by speaking on this subject, is showcasing his privileged position. Maybe he understands what women are going through and empathizes with them. However, his opinions on the subject are immaterial and when you're privileged, you tend to say things that just showcase that privilege.

Freedom of speech is not the same thing as freedom from repercussions. No one is saying he doesn't have the right to speak, what Okri is implying is that perhaps he should guard his speech and not just open his mouth when he may end up doing more damage than he thinks he will. So, Okri is suggesting that Damon is only hurting himself by speaking out on the subject and saying stupid things, which is why his publicist would want to staple his mouth shut to keep him from damaging himself.

It's a lesson certain people on this board need to learn.
Dude there was no need for this long winded explanation. I already understood what Damon said, what he was trying to say and what he should not have said.

The situation is now getting so out of hand that even a wink at someone could now be misconstrued as sexual harrassment. There is no stopping anyone from retaliating. It's scary and not helped by many like you who are ready to jump down people's throats for asking questions.

I was only trying to add once again that all of you are far too trigger happy in this current scenario failing to see that each case is different and all cannot be lumped together. Yes, there should ideally be no sexual harrassment but it is a direct result of the sexual revolution your society craved and fought for. No amount of flogging your chests is going to make it go away. Speaking out is an excellent start as a means of bringing it out in the open. But you may as well reconcile yourselves to the fact that it's not going anytime soon or at all.
Last edited by Reza on Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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