Personal Oscar Predictions

For the films of 2011
bizarre
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by bizarre »

I think the neorealist aspects of Il demonio cannot be ignored - the on-location shooting, the focus on the poor, the provincial settings, the non-professional actors, the natural light, the lusty melodrama of the story. It is simply balanced with aspects of horror, erotica and exploitation.

But I'd settle for labeling it 'a great film and a potent feminist work that should be more widely seen'.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by criddic3 »

Sex and movies: can't beat that combo!! :)
"Because here’s the thing about life: There’s no accounting for what fate will deal you. Some days when you need a hand. There are other days when we’re called to lend a hand." -- President Joe Biden, 01/20/2021
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by Dien »

Think of it like the work of Dali. Many consider his paintings to be surreal. Surrealist artists of the time and many of its modern advocators did/do not. Perhaps the same can be said about neorealism?
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by ITALIANO »

Ah, so Il demonio is a neorealistic movie, and so are, I guess, Your Hands on My Body, Valeria Inside and Outside, Technique of Love, Later Claire Later, etc. My advice: don't talk about this to anyone, we'll pretend we didn't hear you.

And your ugggggggggggh is an easy way out, bizarre. But ok, this time I won't insist. This time.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by bizarre »

ITALIANO wrote:Bizarre, bizarre - why do you keep talking about things you don't know anything about? It's a fact that neorealism as a movement didn't last more than a few years - and of course elements of it can be found in Monicelli's commedia all'italiana, but only elements - Monicelli was a neorealist only at the beginning of his career, if he ever was. (As for Rondi, who as director made mostly erotic movies, including the perennial Riot in a Women's Prison, the idea that he can be considered a neorealist is, well, bizarre - but also idiotic. Please tell me me your theory about neorealism in his movies - in detail. I'm curious).

And again - the essence of neorealism was truth, but truth (is it so difficult to understand this?) in movies can be reached through technical and narrative devices. And honestly - if a director chooses to dub his actors it's because he knows that his movie will be more effective that way, and that's what matters. I don't understand your shock. It's movies we are talking about, bizarre, not real life! And movies are always, partly, artificial. The paranoia, my dear bizarre, is all on your side - YOU are afraid that movies can lie to you - I simply don't expect them to tell the truth, the objective truth, in the first place.

Also - are you blind or stupid? - I said that I prefer to see movies in their original language (and by the way - I'm not writing in MY language now! This should prove something to you). I just added that subtitles aren't the perfect option.

Another thing. Racial doesn't mean racist - at least in sex, bizarre, don't be politically correct, ok? Your life will be much easier and happier if you don't apply silly cliches to our natural instinct for sex, trust Italiano. But just to reassure you, my tastes in sex are quite global - many of those foreigners were Caucasian like me, though it's true that I've welcomed people of any race, as long as I found them attractive. Where's racism in this?!

And believe me, in this board we see LOTS of foreign movies - we don't need your little lessons, thank you.

So now I'm looking forward to your essay on "neorealism in the films directed by Brunello Rondi" and to your answer to my question: do you read novels in Serbian? In Tagalog? In Italian?
RE: Rondi, I did allude to neorealism as an ingredient in genre stews. You can see this in many early-60s Italian directors and in Rondi's case it provides a counterpoint for horror techniques. Il demonio is a good example of the "neorealist horror".

In regards to the rest of your post: ugggggggggggh.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by ITALIANO »

bizarre wrote:
ITALIANO wrote:Well... I don't like insults - if I did, I'd say that you don't know anything about cinema, which is painfully obvious from any single line you write - even in this post: for example, neorealism only lasted a few years in the late 40s-early 50s, certainly not till the 60s, and anyway many, if not most, of the non-professional actors in those movies WERE dubbed in Italian by professionals, with great results often, so I don't understand your point honestly. Truth is something deeper than a voice, my dear friend, and anyway it's the final result which counts - who cares if it's the actor's real voice or not? It just has to be the RIGHT voice.

As for foreign movies, of course I generally prefer to see them in their original language, which is very easy today even in Italy. But subtitles - which are often vague, and for obvious reasons never complete, and rarely nuanced - aren't the perfect option either. YOU may think it is, because you are used to them, like you may think that you can understand the nuances of a line spoken in Japanese - but you are wrong, absolutely wrong. You can't, unless, of course, you are part of that culture or you know it well. It's just an illusion - which comes for ignorance.

As for me being lazy... Well, first of all, if I were, it would be an aspect of my personality that you don't have any right to criticize, like for example if you were an idiot I shouldn't criticize you. But am I really so lazy? I mean, there's something more important than movies, even if it sounds so strange on this board - and it's LIFE. I may not like subtitles, but I've made love with people from almost every single country in the world - maybe I've still have some African place left, but I'm still reasonably young, I have time. So I've not only felt or seen but also heard people (mostly men) having sex in every language in the world (their language), and it wasn't just a physical exercise (though that was, of course, very pleasant) but also an intellectual one - I was HUNGRY for details about their background, their cultures, their emotions. These are the REAL voices one need to hear, this is where one must prove not to be lazy, these are the real intellectual and emotional challenges, bizarre, not movies, not Peggy Cass's voice - and most importantly this is where one shouldn't need subtitles. And, by the way, this is also the only way one can really understand movies - foreign movies especially. Otherwise it's just theory.

As for "classics" - bizarre, do you read novels in Serbian? In Tagalog? In Italian even? If you do, good for you, but I and many others need translations, and translations is like dubbing (not like subtitles) for a movie.
Neorealism lasted well into the late 50s and early 60s in diluted forms - see Monicelli or Olmi or even Rondi all of whom updated the form to incorporate recent history and different genres. So, clearly you know less about your home cinema than I do. The dubbing issue for neoralism directly contradicts said movement's goal for pure and unabashed verity.

Anyway, I'm not sure why that bizarre and grotesque analogy to sexual altos was chucked in there, but it really seems to serve no purpose other than to outline that you are the typical Italian man, only gay. You seem to have some sort of paranoia that subtitle translators are constantly lying to you. In any case a slight mis-translation or the paraphrasing of an untranslatable concept is a white lie compared to a movie being stripped of its original soundscape. Not to mention watching such a mutilation shows a disrespect for the sound mixers of the film, who have one of the most integral and stressful jobs on set, and a disrespect to the actors - frankly, your stance that their natural vocal work could never mean anything to you smacks of xenophobia (noting that while you may have had sex with the entire Benetton catalogue, racial fetishism is alive and well and is still a dangerous form of passive racism).

I have noticed some rather ugly views on "foreign films" here, though, and not just from you. What's this about?


Bizarre, bizarre - why do you keep talking about things you don't know anything about? It's a fact that neorealism as a movement didn't last more than a few years - and of course elements of it can be found in Monicelli's commedia all'italiana, but only elements - Monicelli was a neorealist only at the beginning of his career, if he ever was. (As for Rondi, who as a director made mostly erotic movies, including the perennial Riot in a Women's Prison, the idea that he can be considered a neorealist is, well, bizarre - but also idiotic. Please tell me me your theory about neorealism in his movies - in detail. I'm curious).

And again - the essence of neorealism was truth, but truth (is it so difficult to understand this?) in movies can be reached through technical and narrative devices. And honestly - if a director chooses to dub his actors it's because he knows that his movie will be more effective that way, and that's what matters. I don't understand your shock. It's movies we are talking about, bizarre, not real life! And movies are always, partly, artificial. The paranoia, my dear bizarre, is all on your side - YOU are afraid that movies can lie to you - I simply don't expect them to tell the truth, the objective truth, in the first place.

Also - are you blind or stupid? - I said that I prefer to see movies in their original language (and by the way - I'm not writing in MY language now! This should prove something to you). I just added that subtitles aren't the perfect option.

Another thing. Racial doesn't mean racist - at least in sex, bizarre, don't be politically correct, ok? Your life will be much easier and happier if you don't apply silly cliches to our natural instinct for sex, trust Italiano. But just to reassure you, my tastes in sex are quite global - many of those foreigners were Caucasian like me, though it's true that I've welcomed people of any race, as long as I found them attractive. Where's racism in this?!

And believe me, we on this board we see LOTS of foreign movies - we don't need your little lessons, thank you.

So now I'm looking forward to your essay on "neorealism in the films directed by Brunello Rondi" and to your answer to my question: do you read novels in Serbian? In Tagalog? In Italian?
Last edited by ITALIANO on Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by bizarre »

I don't want to break the flow here, but I did make some new predictions post-NBR/NYFCC/Spirits/Sats that'll hold me out until LAFCA:

BEST PICTURE
* "Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close" - Scott Rudin
"Hugo" - Johnny Depp, Tim Headington, Graham King, Martin Scorsese
"The Artist" - Thomas Langmann, Emmanuel Montamat
"The Descendants" - Jim Burke, Alexander Payne, Jim Taylor
"The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" - Ceán Chaffin, Scott Rudin, Ole Søndberg, Søren Stærmose
"The Help" - Michael Barnathan, Chris Columbus, Brunson Green
"War Horse" - Kathleen Kennedy, Steven Spielberg
ALTERNATE: "Moneyball" - Michael de Luca, Rachael Horovitz, Brad Pitt

BEST DIRECTOR
"Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close" - Stephen Daldry
"Hugo" - Martin Scorsese
* "The Artist" - Michel Hazanavicius
"The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" - David Fincher
"War Horse" - Steven Spielberg
ALTERNATE: "The Descendants" - Alexander Payne

BEST ACTOR
"J. Edgar" - Leonardo DiCaprio
"Moneyball" - Brad Pitt
* "The Artist" - Jean Dujardin
"The Descendants" - George Clooney
"Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy" - Gary Oldman
ALTERNATE: "Take Shelter" - Michael Shannon

BEST ACTRESS
"My Week with Marilyn" - Michelle Williams
"The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" - Rooney Mara
* "The Help" - Viola Davis
"The Iron Lady" - Meryl Streep
"Young Adult" - Charlize Theron
ALTERNATE: "Albert Nobbs" - Glenn Close

BEST SUPPORTING ACTOR
"Beginners" - Christopher Plummer
"Drive" - Albert Brooks
* "Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close" - Max von Sydow
"J. Edgar" - Armie Hammer
"Midnight in Paris" - Corey Stoll
ALTERNATE: "Warrior" - Nick Nolte

BEST SUPPORTING ACTRESS
* "Coriolanus" - Vanessa Redgrave
"Take Shelter" - Jessica Chastain
"The Artist" - Bérénice Bejo
"The Descendants" - Shailene Woodley
"The Help" - Octavia Spencer
ALTERNATE: "Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close" - Sandra Bullock, or "The Help" replacing "Take Shelter" as Jessica Chastain's nomination

BEST ADAPTED SCREENPLAY
* "Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close" - Eric Roth
"Moneyball" - Aaron Sorkin, Steven Zaillian
"The Descendants" - Nat Faxon, Alexander Payne, Jim Rash
"The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo" - Steven Zaillian
"The Help" - Tate Taylor
ALTERNATE: "War Horse" - Richard Curtis, Lee Hall

BEST ORIGINAL SCREENPLAY
"A Separation" - Asghar Farhadi
"Midnight in Paris" - Woody Allen
"Shame" - Steve McQueen, Abi Morgan
* "The Artist" - Michel Hazanavicius
"Young Adult" - Diablo Cody
ALTERNATE: "Beginners" - Mike Mills
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

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Pass the popcorn. This is getting good.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by bizarre »

ITALIANO wrote:Well... I don't like insults - if I did, I'd say that you don't know anything about cinema, which is painfully obvious from any single line you write - even in this post: for example, neorealism only lasted a few years in the late 40s-early 50s, certainly not till the 60s, and anyway many, if not most, of the non-professional actors in those movies WERE dubbed in Italian by professionals, with great results often, so I don't understand your point honestly. Truth is something deeper than a voice, my dear friend, and anyway it's the final result which counts - who cares if it's the actor's real voice or not? It just has to be the RIGHT voice.

As for foreign movies, of course I generally prefer to see them in their original language, which is very easy today even in Italy. But subtitles - which are often vague, and for obvious reasons never complete, and rarely nuanced - aren't the perfect option either. YOU may think it is, because you are used to them, like you may think that you can understand the nuances of a line spoken in Japanese - but you are wrong, absolutely wrong. You can't, unless, of course, you are part of that culture or you know it well. It's just an illusion - which comes for ignorance.

As for me being lazy... Well, first of all, if I were, it would be an aspect of my personality that you don't have any right to criticize, like for example if you were an idiot I shouldn't criticize you. But am I really so lazy? I mean, there's something more important than movies, even if it sounds so strange on this board - and it's LIFE. I may not like subtitles, but I've made love with people from almost every single country in the world - maybe I've still have some African place left, but I'm still reasonably young, I have time. So I've not only felt or seen but also heard people (mostly men) having sex in every language in the world (their language), and it wasn't just a physical exercise (though that was, of course, very pleasant) but also an intellectual one - I was HUNGRY for details about their background, their cultures, their emotions. These are the REAL voices one need to hear, this is where one must prove not to be lazy, these are the real intellectual and emotional challenges, bizarre, not movies, not Peggy Cass's voice - and most importantly this is where one shouldn't need subtitles. And, by the way, this is also the only way one can really understand movies - foreign movies especially. Otherwise it's just theory.

As for "classics" - bizarre, do you read novels in Serbian? In Tagalog? In Italian even? If you do, good for you, but I and many others need translations, and translations is like dubbing (not like subtitles) for a movie.
Neorealism lasted well into the late 50s and early 60s in diluted forms - see Monicelli or Olmi or even Rondi all of whom updated the form to incorporate recent history and different genres. So, clearly you know less about your home cinema than I do. The dubbing issue for neoralism directly contradicts said movement's goal for pure and unabashed verity.

Anyway, I'm not sure why that bizarre and grotesque analogy to sexual altos was chucked in there, but it really seems to serve no purpose other than to outline that you are the typical Italian man, only gay. You seem to have some sort of paranoia that subtitle translators are constantly lying to you. In any case a slight mis-translation or the paraphrasing of an untranslatable concept is a white lie compared to a movie being stripped of its original soundscape. Not to mention watching such a mutilation shows a disrespect for the sound mixers of the film, who have one of the most integral and stressful jobs on set, and a disrespect to the actors - frankly, your stance that their natural vocal work could never mean anything to you smacks of xenophobia (noting that while you may have had sex with the entire Benetton catalogue, racial fetishism is alive and well and is still a dangerous form of passive racism).

I have noticed some rather ugly views on "foreign films" here, though, and not just from you. What's this about?
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by Dien »

Big Magilla wrote:I am much more bothered by dubbed singing in which the singer's voice doesn't remotely sound like the actor's.
I see this more in animated Disney films than live musicals. In which case they just get actors that can't sing, both amusing and annoying at the same.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by Big Magilla »

Same language dubbing is less noticeable. Two famous examples that went undetected by much of the public were Angela Lansbury for Ingrid Thulin in Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse and Glenn Close for Andie MacDowell in Greystoke: The legend of Tarzan, Lord of the Apes.

I am much more bothered by dubbed singing in which the singer's voice doesn't remotely sound like the actor's.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by Dien »

Dubbing is also prevalent in American productions. A notable example is the first Star Wars film, and I'm not talking about James Earl Jones as Darth Vader. In the film, Aunt Beru is played by Shelagh Fraser but her voice was dubbed by a voice actress in post-production. Every re-release of the original Star Wars films introduces a new dubbing of Aunt Beru by a different actress. The deception is remarkably unnoticeable until you watch the scenes next to each other. Each voice has its own unique tone and inflection while still being realistic and matching with the live actress's lip movement.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by Big Magilla »

LOL. I can't top that response.

Whether dubbed or subtitled films made in one language and translated for audiences in another, sometimes lose something in the translation. Words are changed to adhere as closely as possible to lip movements in dubbing; changed or shorting to capture the genereal idea in rapid dialogue films in which the subtitles must keep up with the action on screen. It's not a perfect science.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by ITALIANO »

bizarre wrote:
ITALIANO wrote:As an Italian, I definitely consider dubbing an important - and VERY expressive - element of filmmaking. If well used, of course, it can add a lot to a film, and it's true that the movies of not only Fellini and Pasolini, but also of the most inventive and talented grade-B directors, would have never been made - or would have never been so good - without it. Wonderful faces without acting experience suddenly speaking not only Italian but, when needed, Italian with any kind of accent, Roman, Sicilian, Milanese... And foreign actors, of course, who became Italians - and often, again, accented Italians - and very believable ones, if only for that one hour and a half. So Burt Lancaster became the most convincing Sicilian prince ever - the magic of cinema, really. But this is why we go to the movies.
Because, ok - did the sound in these dubbed movies perfectly match the movements of the lips? No, true. And did we care? No, but not because we were superficial. We just knew, I guess, that movies aren't real life, and shouldn't be expected to be, but rather a parallel world, wonderful but not necessarily realistic. Or yes, realistic maybe - but not REAL. Now we don't dub our movies anymore - and by cohincidence Italian cinemas is much less interesting and lively.

As for foreign movies, I hate subtitles if I don't know the language the actors speak at least I bit. American, English, even French or Spanish movies are ok with subtitles - I don't have to read everything, so I'm not too distracted. But honestly, I'd lose too much of the visual aspect of the movie if I had to see, say, a Korean movie with subtitles - and does it really matter if I miss the way an actor pronounce a certain word? Not really, especially as I will never know what that certain word means, and even the tone of voice of the actor, in that cultural context, can have a completely different meaning than it'd have in Europe. Plus, we often read books translated in our language - and in novels the style, the choice of words, the rhythm of the prose are the writer's VOICE.
Sorry, but I think this is a crock of shit.

Well... I don't like insults - if I did, I'd say that you don't know anything about cinema, which is painfully obvious from any single line you write - even in this post: for example, neorealism only lasted a few years in the late 40s-early 50s, certainly not till the 60s, and anyway many, if not most, of the non-professional actors in those movies WERE dubbed in Italian by professionals, with great results often, so I don't understand your point honestly. Truth is something deeper than a voice, my dear friend, and anyway it's the final result which counts - who cares if it's the actor's real voice or not? It just has to be the RIGHT voice.

As for foreign movies, of course I generally prefer to see them in their original language, which is very easy today even in Italy. But subtitles - which are often vague, and for obvious reasons never complete, and rarely nuanced - aren't the perfect option either. YOU may think it is, because you are used to them, like you may think that you can understand the nuances of a line spoken in Japanese - but you are wrong, absolutely wrong. You can't, unless, of course, you are part of that culture or you know it well. It's just an illusion - which comes for ignorance.

As for me being lazy... Well, first of all, if I were, it would be an aspect of my personality that you don't have any right to criticize, like for example if you were an idiot I shouldn't criticize you. But am I really so lazy? I mean, there's something more important than movies, even if it sounds so strange on this board - and it's LIFE. I may not like subtitles, but I've made love with people from almost every single country in the world - maybe I've still have some African place left, but I'm still reasonably young, I have time. So I've not only felt or seen but also heard people (mostly men) having sex in every language in the world (their language), and it wasn't just a physical exercise (though that was, of course, very pleasant) but also an intellectual one - I was HUNGRY for details about their background, their cultures, their emotions. These are the REAL voices one need to hear, this is where one must prove not to be lazy, these are the real intellectual and emotional challenges, bizarre, not movies, not Peggy Cass's voice - and most importantly this is where one shouldn't need subtitles. And, by the way, this is also the only way one can really understand movies - foreign movies especially. Otherwise it's just theory.

As for "classics" - bizarre, do you read novels in Serbian? In Tagalog? In Italian even? If you do, good for you, but I and many others need translations, and translations is like dubbing (not like subtitles) for a movie.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by bizarre »

ITALIANO wrote:As an Italian, I definitely consider dubbing an important - and VERY expressive - element of filmmaking. If well used, of course, it can add a lot to a film, and it's true that the movies of not only Fellini and Pasolini, but also of the most inventive and talented grade-B directors, would have never been made - or would have never been so good - without it. Wonderful faces without acting experience suddenly speaking not only Italian but, when needed, Italian with any kind of accent, Roman, Sicilian, Milanese... And foreign actors, of course, who became Italians - and often, again, accented Italians - and very believable ones, if only for that one hour and a half. So Burt Lancaster became the most convincing Sicilian prince ever - the magic of cinema, really. But this is why we go to the movies.
Because, ok - did the sound in these dubbed movies perfectly match the movements of the lips? No, true. And did we care? No, but not because we were superficial. We just knew, I guess, that movies aren't real life, and shouldn't be expected to be, but rather a parallel world, wonderful but not necessarily realistic. Or yes, realistic maybe - but not REAL. Now we don't dub our movies anymore - and by cohincidence Italian cinemas is much less interesting and lively.

As for foreign movies, I hate subtitles if I don't know the language the actors speak at least I bit. American, English, even French or Spanish movies are ok with subtitles - I don't have to read everything, so I'm not too distracted. But honestly, I'd lose too much of the visual aspect of the movie if I had to see, say, a Korean movie with subtitles - and does it really matter if I miss the way an actor pronounce a certain word? Not really, especially as I will never know what that certain word means, and even the tone of voice of the actor, in that cultural context, can have a completely different meaning than it'd have in Europe. Plus, we often read books translated in our language - and in novels the style, the choice of words, the rhythm of the prose are the writer's VOICE.
Sorry, but I think this is a crock of shit. For one, Italy's major export from the 40s through the 60s was neorealism which, going by your logic, suffers horribly from dubbing. I take it for granted that antique Italian films will be postdubbed and I put up with it because there's no other option, but I find it obnoxious and I always have. And even if you can't speak the language an actor is speaking their vocal work is, like, half of their performance. Regardless of whether you can translate their words on your own or whether their inflections correlate with those in your language, a well-delivered line is still immediately noticeable. I look at a performance like Kinuyo Tanaka's in Flowing, Sol Kyung-gu's in Peppermint Candy, Makiko Esumi's in Maboroshi no hikari or Rentaro Mikuni's in The Christian Revolt and the strength of their vocal work is astonishing to me regardless of the language barrier. I think this kind of attitude just makes excuses for laziness - and if you're missing too much of the visual aspect just learn to read quicker!

I've never watched a live-action film dubbed by my own volition. As a child I'd watch the dubs of foreign animated films. But even with these watching in the original language keeps my critical response more honest and truer to the original form of the film. I wouldn't feel comfortable critiquing a dubbed performance unless it only existed in a dubbed form, nor would I be comfortable critiquing a film solely on the virtue of its dub's quality.

As for the novel analogy, the goal of higher education in most of Europe up until, say, 50 years ago was to equip students to read the classics in their original languages.

ETA: Uri, ha! I agree re: Glynis Johns. Someone wilfully keeping themselves from the voices of such diverse talents as Johns, Paul Scofield, Dody Goodman, Joan Greenwood, Laura San Giacomo, Keira Knightley, Fred Gwynne, Peggy Cass... why should one live like that?!
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