Personal Oscar Predictions

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Uri
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by Uri »

ITALIANO wrote:As an Italian, I definitely consider dubbing an important - and VERY expressive - element of filmmaking. If well used, of course, it can add a lot to a film, and it's true that the movies of not only Fellini and Pasolini, but also of the most inventive and talented grade-B directors, would have never been made - or would have never been so good - without it. Wonderful faces without acting experience suddenly speaking not only Italian but, when needed, Italian with any kind of accent, Roman, Sicilian, Milanese... And foreign actors, of course, who became Italians - and often, again, accented Italians - and very believable ones, if only for that one hour and a half. So Burt Lancaster became the most convincing Sicilian prince ever - the magic of cinema, really. But this is why we go to the movies.
Because, ok - did the sound in these dubbed movies perfectly match the movements of the lips? No, true. And did we care? No, but not because we were superficial. We just knew, I guess, that movies aren't real life, and shouldn't be expected to be, but rather a parallel world, wonderful but not necessarily realistic. Or yes, realistic maybe - but not REAL. Now we don't dub our movies anymore - and by cohincidence Italian cinemas is much less interesting and lively.

As for foreign movies, I hate subtitles if I don't know the language the actors speak at least I bit. American, English, even French or Spanish movies are ok with subtitles - I don't have to read everything, so I'm not too distracted. But honestly, I'd lose too much of the visual aspect of the movie if I had to see, say, a Korean movie with subtitles - and does it really matter if I miss the way an actor pronounce a certain word? Not really, especially as I will never know what that certain word means, and even the tone of voice of the actor, in that cultural context, can have a completely different meaning than it'd have in Europe. Plus, we often read books translated in our language - and in novels the style, the choice of words, the rhythm of the prose are the writer's VOICE.

Isn't it fascinating, how not only the way we evaluate movies, but also the way we judge and score the way movies should be evaluated, is in perfect correlation not only with who we are as individuals but maybe even more so with the way we were trained as moviegoers.

And when it comes to the issue of dubbing, there couldn't be two more different kinds of experience than one you were having, Marco, growing up in Italy and what I was having here in Israel. Growing up, associating cinema and Hebrew seemed to be a very far fetched notion – the very few Israeli made films were usually not that good and no foreign film was ever dubbed, so for me, it was a given that while the cinematic language may be a universal one, the actual language spoken in films was a foreign tongue to me and subtitles were such an obvious necessity. Even Israeli films had Hebrew subtitles – partly because too often the technical quality of the soundtrack wasn't good enough and partly because this was an immigrant society and many viewers needed this tool to fully get spoken words (the way Americans would sometime seem to need subtitles watching what is for them a heavily accented English speaking film). Those printed lines on the bottom of the frame were just always there and we were totally oblivious to them once we could read them – as a little child there was that anticipation to be old enough to be able to read them hence being able to fully experience what film watching is all about. It was such an integral part of the movies that when I eventually did see films without subtitle it was rather strange at first – something was missing.

I guess this way of watching films might make some moviegoers be unaware of the spoken word, but on the other hand, for others it's an opportunity to learn to listen more carefully – once the spoken word is not taken for granted and one must consciously pay attention to it, there's a possibility for a more nuanced sensibility to evolve. Language is not only about meanings. It's about sound, rhythm, a certain kind of music – all as essential as the contextual content of a dialogue, and at times, even not less important than the visuals. Angi Vera was the first time I saw a Hungarian speaking film. Since it's such a unique language, I remember very well it took me quite a while not only to be able to connect the tone and the intonation of the actors with the written translation, but even more so to fully accept that the sounds I heard were indeed a viable way for people to express themselves. The same can be said about Asian films, Turkish, Iranian – you name it. But once you're able to do so, there's a very enriching extra layer for you to have which I believe is missing with dubbed films. And for me, as a younger person, speaking Hebrew and a little bit of English, so were Italian movies, but I'm happy I was given the chance to watch Rita Pavona singing and shouting in her own voice thus getting her full vivid persona, even though I had to struggle as a child with the subtitles in order to get the deep meaning of her films.

Can we really "objectively" decide which way is better? Am I more fortunate for being able to see all these films in their original, "pure" form or was I condemned to be dependent of a distracting, even alienating devise which prevented me from experiencing cinema in its full, "pure" visual glory? Is my nitpicking approach to dubbing the result of my cinematic up bringing or does it have to do a lot with me being an extremely anal person? Who knows. I guess, like mostly everything else in Life, it has a lot to do with the way we were conditioned, and that a lot of what we believe to be very well thought, intellectually structured reasoning and evaluation methods have a lot to do with these conditionings. So who wins? I do, once we accept my point of view, you do, once we accept your equally, if not better, based one.

On the other hand, I have lived my life since I was 5, fully aware of the uniquely charming and delicious voice of Glynis Jones, of which you knew nothing until you turned 30, even though you did see quite a few of the films she made. You loose.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by anonymous1980 »

Why do you think J. Edgar is still above Hugo and Midnight in Paris? It's got wildly mixed to negative reviews with the critics. (It's about 42% on Rotten Tomatoes, last time I checked). The Academy has cooled on Eastwood lately. Invictus and Hereafter both got better reviews and failed to get in Best Picture.

I think J. Edgar would be lucky if it manages a nod for Leo and maybe for Makeup. And that's it.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by rolotomasi99 »

Here we go. Each category has the nominees listed in the order of likelihood.


BEST PICTURE
 
War Horse

The Artist

The Descendants

Extremely Loud And Incredibly Close

J. Edgar

The Tree Of Life

Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy

The Help

Hugo

Midnight In Paris

DIRECTOR

War Horse

The Descendants

The Artist

Extremely Loud And Incredibly Close

The Tree Of Life

ADAPTED

The Descendants

Moneyball

War Horse

Extremely Loud And Incredibly Close

Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy

ORIGINAL

The Artist

Midnight In Paris

Young Adult

J. Edgar

Win Win

L. ACTOR

Leo Dicaprio - J. Edgar

George Clooney - The Descendants

Michael Fassbender - Shame

Jean Dujardin - The Artist

Gary Oldman - Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy

L. ACTRESS

Meryl Streep - The Iron Lady

Viola Davis - The Help

Glenn Close - Albert Nobbs

Michelle Williams - My Week With Maryilyn

Tilda Swinton - We Need To Talk About Kevin

S. ACTOR

Christopher Plummer - Beginners

Armie Hammer - J. Edgar

Max Von Sydow - Extremely Loud And Incredibly Close

Albert Brooks - Drive

John C. Riley - We Need To Talk About Kevin

S. ACTRESS

Octavia Spencer - The Help

Janet McTeer - Albert Nobbs

Vanessa Redgrave - Corialanus

Carey Mulligan - Shame

Shailene Woodley - The Descendents

EDITING

War Horse

The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo

Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy

Hugo

Extremely Loud And Incredibly Close

CINEMATOGRAPHY

War Horse

The Tree Of Life

J. Edgar

Hugo

The Artist

SET

Hugo

The Artist

War Horse

J. Edgar

The Deathly Hallows

COSTUME

Hugo

The Artist

J. Edgar

War Horse

Jane Eyre

SCORE

War Horse

The Adventures Of Tintin

Hugo

Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy

The Artist

SOUND
 
War Horse

The Adventures Of Tintin

Hugo

Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy

Extremely Loud And Incredibly Close

SOUND EDITING

War Horse

The Adventures Of Tintin

Super 8

The Deathly Hallows

Cars 2

VISUAL EFFECTS

The Deathly Hallows

Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes

Super 8

Transformers 3

The Tree Of Life

MAKE-UP

J. Edgar

The Iron Lady

Hugo
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

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Sonic Youth wrote:OTOH, watching films in English dubbed into another language you don't understand is great fun to watch. It's a blast listening to what voices come out of the celebrities' mouths on the Telemundo network. I got through an entire Schwarzenneger action film that way.
That's a good sociological experiment to take part in. It's interesting to see how other cultures portray character archtypes.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by ITALIANO »

As an Italian, I definitely consider dubbing an important - and VERY expressive - element of filmmaking. If well used, of course, it can add a lot to a film, and it's true that the movies of not only Fellini and Pasolini, but also of the most inventive and talented grade-B directors, would have never been made - or would have never been so good - without it. Wonderful faces without acting experience suddenly speaking not only Italian but, when needed, Italian with any kind of accent, Roman, Sicilian, Milanese... And foreign actors, of course, who became Italians - and often, again, accented Italians - and very believable ones, if only for that one hour and a half. So Burt Lancaster became the most convincing Sicilian prince ever - the magic of cinema, really. But this is why we go to the movies.
Because, ok - did the sound in these dubbed movies perfectly match the movements of the lips? No, true. And did we care? No, but not because we were superficial. We just knew, I guess, that movies aren't real life, and shouldn't be expected to be, but rather a parallel world, wonderful but not necessarily realistic. Or yes, realistic maybe - but not REAL. Now we don't dub our movies anymore - and by cohincidence Italian cinemas is much less interesting and lively.

As for foreign movies, I hate subtitles if I don't know the language the actors speak at least I bit. American, English, even French or Spanish movies are ok with subtitles - I don't have to read everything, so I'm not too distracted. But honestly, I'd lose too much of the visual aspect of the movie if I had to see, say, a Korean movie with subtitles - and does it really matter if I miss the way an actor pronounce a certain word? Not really, especially as I will never know what that certain word means, and even the tone of voice of the actor, in that cultural context, can have a completely different meaning than it'd have in Europe. Plus, we often read books translated in our language - and in novels the style, the choice of words, the rhythm of the prose are the writer's VOICE.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

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Dien wrote:I have to watch it with subtitles. Dubbing takes me out of the movie. In the case of Miyazaki films, it's fine just to hear how the A-list cast portray the characters - then I'll just switch it. Most foreign films I watch don't involve much action, so I'm not missing much when I read. And in the case of foreign animation, it's a must to have subtitles. Dub actors are notorious hams. It depends on the forward studio.
You may be interested in this:

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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

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OTOH, watching films in English dubbed into another language you don't understand is great fun to watch. It's a blast listening to what voices come out of the celebrities' mouths on the Telemundo network. I got through an entire Schwarzenneger action film that way.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

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I have to watch it with subtitles. Dubbing takes me out of the movie. In the case of Miyazaki films, it's fine just to hear how the A-list cast portray the characters - then I'll just switch it. Most foreign films I watch don't involve much action, so I'm not missing much when I read. And in the case of foreign animation, it's a must to have subtitles. Dub actors are notorious hams. It depends on the forward studio.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

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I am, in general, opposed to dubbing. However, the Hayao Miyazaki films are perfectly fine dubbed and I don't think I could watch one with subtitles.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by Uri »

Big Magilla wrote:There's good dubbing and bad dubbing. The dubbing on the Dragon trilogy is expertly done. The lip movements are in sync with the spoken words. It's not done like some hack job from the 60s.
Hardly.

I'm curious, what you guys thinks about dubbing as an inherent part of film making, as was the usual process with many European films, where films were shot and later mostly dubbed, whether by the original actors seen on onscreen or by others, professional dubbing artists – that's the way Fellini's films were very obviously made and in the case of, say, Pasolini, it enabled the casting of nonactors solely based on their looks. And it was an integral part of many co-productions, when people of different nationalities were sharing the same frame, each speaking in his or her native tongue, and later they were variously dubbed to accommodate the film to different markets.

Belonging to the relatively small portion of human kind whose Hebrew speaking, it was fortunate it wasn't economically viable to dub foreign movies here, so I was rather spoiled, so I find it most distracting. I remember watching the French speaking version of Wajda's Danton and how painful it was for me having to endure the close-ups of the very obviously Polish speaking Wojciech Pszoniak's mouth as the passionate Robespierre. And as Tee (or Renoir) rightfully said, it's not only about the visual distraction – there is that genuine moment caught up on celluloid, and in too many times its particular mood just can't be matched when being dubbed, certainly by other people, and even by the same people – Liv Ullmann's performance comes of way better in the Swedish version than in the English speaking one, in which she herself provided the dubbing.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by Big Magilla »

There's good dubbing and bad dubbing. The dubbing on the Dragon trilogy is expertly done. The lip movements are in sync with the spoken words. It's not done like some hack job from the 60s.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by Damien »

I find dubbing to be 100 times more distracting than subtitles. I remember in the mid-60s Mad magazine had "A MAD Look At Art Films ." While a group of teenage boys were going wild at the nudity in some Swedish movie ("Oh my God!! She's taking her clothes off!!) a pair of prepubescent kids were visibly bored, slouching in their seats, one of them saying, "What a dumb movie. The lips go one way and the words come out another."
Last edited by Damien on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by Mister Tee »

Big Magilla wrote:
Mister Tee wrote:
Big Magilla wrote:Tee, I don't know about anyone else, but, yeah, I am seriously suggesting that a quick U.S. remake of Dragon Tattoo is a mistake. I thought it was doomed from the minute Daniel Craig was inappropriately cast as the male lead.

How could you watch the first two and not the third, which wraps it all up? I thought the second was a letdown after the first, but not the third which ties everything together.
Because I read the three books, and thought the third was far and away the worst -- there wasn't a single new element in it, and it all evolved in a totally predictable, "the government goons will try to silence Salander, but she will triumph at every turn" way. Plus, my wife isn't crazy about subtitled movies, and these days I'm trying to gear the entertainment portion of our DVD watching to movies she'd enjoy.

By the way, this must be the first time any David Fincher project has ever been described as "quick".
Is it only the Blu-rays that have the Enlgish dubbed option or do you just not like dubbed movies?
I hate dubbing to the depths of my being. As Jean Renoir once put it: in an earlier century, anyone who dubbed would have been burned at the stake, for presuming to suggest two souls could occupy one body.
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by Big Magilla »

Mister Tee wrote:
Big Magilla wrote:Tee, I don't know about anyone else, but, yeah, I am seriously suggesting that a quick U.S. remake of Dragon Tattoo is a mistake. I thought it was doomed from the minute Daniel Craig was inappropriately cast as the male lead.

How could you watch the first two and not the third, which wraps it all up? I thought the second was a letdown after the first, but not the third which ties everything together.
Because I read the three books, and thought the third was far and away the worst -- there wasn't a single new element in it, and it all evolved in a totally predictable, "the government goons will try to silence Salander, but she will triumph at every turn" way. Plus, my wife isn't crazy about subtitled movies, and these days I'm trying to gear the entertainment portion of our DVD watching to movies she'd enjoy.

By the way, this must be the first time any David Fincher project has ever been described as "quick".
Is it only the Blu-rays that have the Enlgish dubbed option or do you just not like dubbed movies?
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Re: Personal Oscar Predictions

Post by Sabin »

It's a brilliant move by Warner Bros. They're not just capitalizing on a recent string of successful foreign films and books, they're also capitalizing on a fairly brilliant director who is very recently and publicly beloved. They have a fantastic marketing campaign, and (most importantly) there is nothing by way of competition for its niche on its release date. I think Warner Bros is looking pretty darn good right now.

A lot of people I know are pretty disgusted at the quick turnaround in remaking these films, ranging from industry folk to people in my family. They will all go see this film opening day.
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