The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

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Re: The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

Postby OscarGuy » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:29 pm

I never said they were Arab. I said I can see why people here would class them as such. Certainly its ignorance whether willful or otherwise. And I don't know that I've changed. I've always been critical of the U.S., but there are times when I feel some of the criticism leveled at it is undeserved and thus I do defend it on occasion. I may not support Iran's rhetoric, but I don't hate its people because of it. I dislike its leadership. I think Saudia Arabia is more dangerous than Iran. They are a very wealthy nation and they don't believe that all men and women are created equal. I trust less the person who would smile to my face and stab me in the back than the person who forwardly admits they hate me. I know who my vocal enemies are, but its the enemies I don't know about that frighten me.
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Re: The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

Postby ITALIANO » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:14 pm

OscarGuy wrote:Stop being an ass, Italiano. I was asking honestly. I was never a student of Middle Eastern cultures or states. My interest lies in Western European culture, specifically French. As I said, I don't condone the lumping of any nationality into a melting pot with others. But as the U.S. itself is busy calling itself a "Christian" nation without technically being one, it's no surprise that my "countrymen" with whom I disagree regularly, would want to lump other countries together as "Muslim" and then, looking at their history of oppression based on religious teaches, lump them together. I realize that each country has its own rich history and culture that should be explored separately, but since the Cold War, the U.S. has become an isolationist, invading nation intent on making everyone else like this, which hasn't really worked. If the world were like us, it goes to reason, the world would be a better place. On the contrary, I would say if the world were like France, the world would be a better place, but that's just my opinion.

I don't and never have felt a kinship towards many of my fellow "Americans" simply because i cannot understand how they can worship a god that preaches love and tolerance and then spite him with their actions. I don't work that way and never will, so while you are free to say whatever you will, I will adamantly reject any attempt to lump me into the same category...and, to be honest, the way you lump all Americans together, it's just like Americans lumping Iranians (who speak Persian, by the way) into a lump group with Arabs. You simply use your superiority as a justification, which is just like a typical American (in your designation of them) would be.




Exactly, they speak Persian. So if you know how could you think that they are Arab?!

I'm glad to know that you have changed and that now you are more critical of your country. I wish more Americans were like you.

And let's be clear: I am not - nor feel - superior. But facts are facts, and one of them is that Iran isn't an Arab country, it's not an opinion - it's the truth, so I just said the truth, like I always try to do. Or should I lie in order not to appear superior?

And you are right, by the way: one shouldn't generalize, not all Americans are alike, and I may have made this mistake. But the problem is that Americans - not all Americans, and certainly not you, but many - tend to generalize not about one country, but about the REST OF THE WORLD, which they are a bit ignorant about. And this ignorance honestly scares me. This is why I seem to overreact sometimes.

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Re: The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

Postby OscarGuy » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:52 pm

Stop being an ass, Italiano. I was asking honestly. I was never a student of Middle Eastern cultures or states. My interest lies in Western European culture, specifically French. As I said, I don't condone the lumping of any nationality into a melting pot with others. But as the U.S. itself is busy calling itself a "Christian" nation without technically being one, it's no surprise that my "countrymen" with whom I disagree regularly, would want to lump other countries together as "Muslim" and then, looking at their history of oppression based on religious teaches, lump them together. I realize that each country has its own rich history and culture that should be explored separately, but since the Cold War, the U.S. has become an isolationist, invading nation intent on making everyone else like this, which hasn't really worked. If the world were like us, it goes to reason, the world would be a better place. On the contrary, I would say if the world were like France, the world would be a better place, but that's just my opinion.

I don't and never have felt a kinship towards many of my fellow "Americans" simply because i cannot understand how they can worship a god that preaches love and tolerance and then spite him with their actions. I don't work that way and never will, so while you are free to say whatever you will, I will adamantly reject any attempt to lump me into the same category...and, to be honest, the way you lump all Americans together, it's just like Americans lumping Iranians (who speak Persian, by the way) into a lump group with Arabs. You simply use your superiority as a justification, which is just like a typical American (in your designation of them) would be.
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Re: The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

Postby ITALIANO » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:19 pm

Ok, Oscar Guy, as you wish: Iran is an Arab country. Iranians don't speak Arabic (actually they speak a completely different language, and not even a Semitic language), ethnically they are Caucasian like you and me, their history is completely separated by the history of the Arab world - yet for you and your nice countrymen they are Arabs. Now you can invade them.

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Re: The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

Postby OscarGuy » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:03 pm

ITALIANO wrote:
OscarGuy wrote:But Egypt and Libya and other countries in North Africa, although not on the Arabian peninsula were part of the "Arab Spring".

Egypt and Libya ARE Arab countries.


So what you're saying is that because Egypt and Libya were originally sultanates that makes them different from Iran?

And it's no different than Europe and The U.S. and Canada being lumped into the broad category of "Western Nations"
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Re: The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

Postby OscarGuy » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:59 pm

So, Italiano, what you then consider the difference. In that regard, no country could be considered Arab because cultural identity even between Arabian peninsula countries is different. And their shared cultural history is based on their Islamic heritage, which would then unite Iran and Iraq which have similar cultural heritages.

At which point I might suggest that it's a confusion of the Arab world as a geographical construct based on similar socio-political environments. The region is united around Islamic fundamentals, though each apply them differently. And I wouldn't consider there to be much difference, at least religiously, between Saudi Arabia and Iran when in Saudi Arabia, women can still be stoned to death based on ancient, barbaric Islamic laws. It's not as common, but it happens. I'm sure you've been there, so I'm wondering how you would consider the two countries different if not politically? The fact that Saudi Arabia is more tolerant and accepting of U.S. policies is political, not cultural, since the U.S. is still one of the biggest petroleum importing countries in the world (may still be the largest, but I haven't seen figures lately). Were the U.S. not pumping billions into the Saudi Arabian economy, would they even still be our allies and would there not be a movement in that country to shift towards an Iranian-like stance? Probably not considering other than the leader of Iran, I've heard most Iranian citizens don't have a problem with the U.S. outside of the vitriol and lies spewed by their leadership.
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Re: The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

Postby ITALIANO » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:58 pm

OscarGuy wrote:But Egypt and Libya and other countries in North Africa, although not on the Arabian peninsula were part of the "Arab Spring".



Egypt and Libya ARE Arab countries.

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Re: The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

Postby OscarGuy » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:53 pm

You're also Pakistani...and I consider you Islamic sure, but Pakistan is closer to India than Arabia. I know I wouldn't ever make that comment...But Egypt and Libya and other countries in North Africa, although not on the Arabian peninsula were part of the "Arab Spring". Not that I'm condoning an ignorance of geography, but I can understand why the mistake is made. Our education system in sciences (which Geography is considered) is woefully inadequate, but that's not the fault of the children, but fault of the adults who don't emphasize it enough or were raised in an environment where it wasn't as important...or because the Republicans want their subjects to be ignorant because it makes it easier to lie to them about the way of the world and get them to believe them. It's been working...
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Re: The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

Postby ITALIANO » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:52 pm

OscarGuy wrote:Do you not consider it Arab because it doesn't sit on the Arabian peninsula? The distinction seems to blur between Middle Eastern Nations, Islamic Nations and actual Arabian Nations. Because the views in say Iran are similar to those in other Islamic nations like Suadia Arabia, calling them an Arab nation seems more about cultural identity than physical locality.



No, it's not about geography - it's actually about cultural identity, and history, and traditions, and literature, and LANGUAGE. About everything. It would be like calling the US a slavic country.

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Re: The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

Postby Reza » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:45 pm

OscarGuy wrote:Do you not consider it Arab because it doesn't sit on the Arabian peninsula? The distinction seems to blur between Middle Eastern Nations, Islamic Nations and actual Arabian Nations. Because the views in say Iran are similar to those in other Islamic nations like Suadia Arabia, calling them an Arab nation seems more about cultural identity than physical locality.


Religious views may be the same in Iran (or Pakistan for that matter) but culturally we are poles apart from the Arabs of Saudi and other Middle Eastern countries. We don't wish to be termed "Arab" just because it's convenient for Americans to think that.

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Re: The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

Postby OscarGuy » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:18 pm

Do you not consider it Arab because it doesn't sit on the Arabian peninsula? The distinction seems to blur between Middle Eastern Nations, Islamic Nations and actual Arabian Nations. Because the views in say Iran are similar to those in other Islamic nations like Suadia Arabia, calling them an Arab nation seems more about cultural identity than physical locality.
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Re: The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

Postby ITALIANO » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:05 pm

Johnny Guitar wrote:
ITALIANO wrote:Through Imdb and other sites I've checked the American reviews of A Separation, and by the way I must admit that some of them are very perceptive, and most - almost all actually - praise the movie. But that's not the point here. The point is: is it so difficult for Americans - and film reviewers are well-educated Americans, or should be - to realize that Iran ISN'T an Arab country? I mean - this isn't a small, unknown nation like Andorra - we are talking about a place that's often discussed in the news, especially in the US. It's ignorance, I repeat - and ignorance leads to even worse mistakes than considering the Iranians as Arab.


Do you have examples in mind? I'm curious to see this. (I'm not asking you rhetorically or in a challenging mood either - I'm genuinely curious.) Are you saying that reviewers appear to be under the impression that Iran is a country populated by Arabs, or that reviewers & journalists (through ignorance) simply lump Iranian cinema & cultural problems in with other Middle Eastern cinema?

I haven't seen A Separation and haven't read a lot of reviews, but those I have read don't conform to your characterization in either case.




This is just the example from Slant, but I had found others:

http://www.slantmagazine.com/house/2012 ... more-26788

Of course it's not like they make a profound analysis of the Iranians as Arab - they just call them, or their countrry, "Arab", and while it can just be a Freudian slip (it's possible that they know the truth), well, Freudian slips have a meaning.

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Re: The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

Postby Johnny Guitar » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:22 pm

ITALIANO wrote:Through Imdb and other sites I've checked the American reviews of A Separation, and by the way I must admit that some of them are very perceptive, and most - almost all actually - praise the movie. But that's not the point here. The point is: is it so difficult for Americans - and film reviewers are well-educated Americans, or should be - to realize that Iran ISN'T an Arab country? I mean - this isn't a small, unknown nation like Andorra - we are talking about a place that's often discussed in the news, especially in the US. It's ignorance, I repeat - and ignorance leads to even worse mistakes than considering the Iranians as Arab.


Do you have examples in mind? I'm curious to see this. (I'm not asking you rhetorically or in a challenging mood either - I'm genuinely curious.) Are you saying that reviewers appear to be under the impression that Iran is a country populated by Arabs, or that reviewers & journalists (through ignorance) simply lump Iranian cinema & cultural problems in with other Middle Eastern cinema?

I haven't seen A Separation and haven't read a lot of reviews, but those I have read don't conform to your characterization in either case.

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Re: The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

Postby ITALIANO » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:52 am

Okri wrote:As to your other point, I think Arab has become interchangeable with Muslim in popular discussion, which is certainly unfair.



It's not just unfair - it's wrong and misleading. There are Arabs who aren't Muslim and Muslims who aren't Arab - I know that propaganda makes people blind (and its aim is to generalize so that people think that it''s just "we", the good guys, vs "them", the bad guys, white vs black - the mere suggestion that grey exists, too, would make it less effective), but it's film reviewers I'm talking about - journalists, and honestly journalists, even in America, should know better. (Interestingly, I've noticed that the "youngest", "hip" sites - like Slant Magazines - often make this kind of mistakes).

You are right about Lady Chatterley. I didn't know it and it hasn't been shown in Italy, but the director has a very good reputation. But as I said, it's very rare, and in this case, while still wrong, it can be at least partly explained with the fact that the story - while actually very British - is now kind of considered to be a world-heritage classic.

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Re: The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo reviews

Postby Okri » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:25 pm

Lady Chatterly - it actually won a bunch of Cesars.

I have to admit I had other issues with Girl with the Dragon Tattoo that it's lack of Swedish roots didn't bother me - admittedly, I actually had some fun with the accents Uri points out.

As to your other point, I think Arab has become interchangeable with Muslim in popular discussion, which is certainly unfair.


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