Fine. Maybe they'll get Samuel L. Jackson. He's around the same age and he has similar facial structures. Now that this has been made a big deal so early on in pre-production I can only anticipate the debate when it's released.
On to another film. There are others out there.
Early 2010 Oscar Candidates
-
rolotomasi99
- Professor
- Posts: 2108
- Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:13 pm
- Location: n/a
- Contact:
i am happy to hear you do not personally have a problem with the possibility of lincoln being black. i cannot speak for all the folks on the board, but i know some white people are actually insulted to hear such an idea.Okri wrote:at no point when you wrote that did you realize what the alternative would be? if a white actor would be too white, and a black actor would be too black...then maybe we should find someone who mostly looks white but has enough black features to better reflect lincoln's lineage! there have to be actor's out there with mixed heritage who could better match lincoln's similar background than some white actor.
Of course that would be a good alternative. Physically, finding someone who perfectly resembles Lincoln without the aid of make-up would be great. Of course, I'll be blunt - I don't really give a shit about how close a physical resemblance to a role an actor is. It didn't bug me when Jolie played Marianne Pearl either. I hadn't heard that Lincoln may have black heritage before this, and that website won't trigger my ire at that casting. I'm hoping Neeson's excellent.
as for the casting, the angelina jolie example is a good point. i remember there was a small amount of controversy with her being casted. some people did liken it to black face. i just feel like there are so few hollywood stories about people of color anyways, so it is very frustrating to see actual stories of people of color (no matter how slight) either be cast with white actors (A MIGHTY HEART) or white-washed (A BEAUTIFUL MIND). it is like when natalie wood played puerto rican (WEST SIDE STORY) or jack palance playing fidel castro (CHE) or john wayne playing genghis kahn (THE CONQUEROR)! just insulting. it is the 21st century. can we not be a little more honest and accurate with our casting?
"When it comes to the subject of torture, I trust a woman who was married to James Cameron for three years."
-- Amy Poehler in praise of Zero Dark Thirty director Kathryn Bigelow
-- Amy Poehler in praise of Zero Dark Thirty director Kathryn Bigelow
I find that site to be a little sketchy. I was reading through their ancient history portion of the site when I came across a few things that didn't seem to fit. According to the site, everything originated from the country. I'd agree that art, the first religion, and agriculture got their start their but I don't know about mathematics, like the site claims. I can't rule it out, but it seems speculative when their one piece of evidence is a bone with a few marks on it. Mesopotamia have the oldest written record of mathematics and, it seems, writing with the Chinese having the first possible writing prototype. Another thing I found technically incorrect was its claim that Christianity and Buddhism was founded in Africa. Christianity was founded in what was legally part of the Roman Empire at the time and what is now modern day Israel. Even Judaism, the building block of Christianity, started in Mesopotamia, moved to Egypt, and then back to Mesopotamia. Buddhism has its roots in Northeast India.
So these claims alone give me the sense that the whole site is just speculation when it comes to history, but not entirely false because there is a lack of sufficient evidence both for and against the cases.
So these claims alone give me the sense that the whole site is just speculation when it comes to history, but not entirely false because there is a lack of sufficient evidence both for and against the cases.
"It's the least most of us can do, but less of us will do more."
1. First of all, I'm black, also Canadian. I think it's rather intriguing to think that there were five presidents with black blood. The reason people are reacting is you're saying it with certainty from pictures that are 150 years old. The comparison to John Nash's wife doesn't hold water because she's verifiably Hispanic - we don't need to rely upon sketchy sources.
2. Rolo, here's what YOU said:
the biggest outrage though is reconciling the fact that lincoln was mixed-race -- which is why it drives me nuts when people say obama is our first black president...hello people, check your history. how can such a white man like neeson play a black man. are they going to do black-face make up like robert downey, jr.? very strange.
You point out that he was mixed race, but then go on to state "how can I white man like Neeson play a black man" - the inference being that a mixed race person should be played by a black man (and here it's especially noteworthy because we're talking about someone who, at most, is 25% black, right? We're saying one of his grandmothers is black, if I'm understanding the debate). I'm a little surprised you would say that, but it's something that I've heard before (see some of the controversy surrounding Miss Saigon in the early 90's) and was hoping for a response.
Of course that would be a good alternative. Physically, finding someone who perfectly resembles Lincoln without the aid of make-up would be great. Of course, I'll be blunt - I don't really give a shit about how close a physical resemblance to a role an actor is. It didn't bug me when Jolie played Marianne Pearl either. I hadn't heard that Lincoln may have black heritage before this, and that website won't trigger my ire at that casting. I'm hoping Neeson's excellent.
Edited By Okri on 1234710982
2. Rolo, here's what YOU said:
the biggest outrage though is reconciling the fact that lincoln was mixed-race -- which is why it drives me nuts when people say obama is our first black president...hello people, check your history. how can such a white man like neeson play a black man. are they going to do black-face make up like robert downey, jr.? very strange.
You point out that he was mixed race, but then go on to state "how can I white man like Neeson play a black man" - the inference being that a mixed race person should be played by a black man (and here it's especially noteworthy because we're talking about someone who, at most, is 25% black, right? We're saying one of his grandmothers is black, if I'm understanding the debate). I'm a little surprised you would say that, but it's something that I've heard before (see some of the controversy surrounding Miss Saigon in the early 90's) and was hoping for a response.
at no point when you wrote that did you realize what the alternative would be? if a white actor would be too white, and a black actor would be too black...then maybe we should find someone who mostly looks white but has enough black features to better reflect lincoln's lineage! there have to be actor's out there with mixed heritage who could better match lincoln's similar background than some white actor.
Of course that would be a good alternative. Physically, finding someone who perfectly resembles Lincoln without the aid of make-up would be great. Of course, I'll be blunt - I don't really give a shit about how close a physical resemblance to a role an actor is. It didn't bug me when Jolie played Marianne Pearl either. I hadn't heard that Lincoln may have black heritage before this, and that website won't trigger my ire at that casting. I'm hoping Neeson's excellent.
Edited By Okri on 1234710982
Not only that but it sure seems like the photo of Andrew-our second black president- Jackson is actually a photo of William Henry Harrison. Of course how could one be certain?Sonic Youth wrote:rolotomasi99 wrote:http://www.computerhealth.org/ebook/5blkpres.htm
So fucking embarrassing.
-
Sonic Youth
- Tenured Laureate
- Posts: 8005
- Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 8:35 pm
- Location: USA
rolotomasi99 wrote:http://www.computerhealth.org/ebook/5blkpres.htm
So fucking embarrassing.
"What the hell?"
Win Butler
Win Butler
-
rolotomasi99
- Professor
- Posts: 2108
- Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:13 pm
- Location: n/a
- Contact:
now i know how to upset the white folks around here: suggest this country has had black presidents prior to barack obama.
oscarguy, this was my source:
http://www.computerhealth.org/ebook/5blkpres.htm
some of the evidence was:
"William Herndon, Lincoln's law partner, said that Lincoln had very dark skin and coarse hair...and...Thomas Lincoln could not have been Abraham Lincoln's father because he was sterile from childhood mumps and was later castrated."
to me though, the best evidence is his face.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/torrez/93279075/
i have grown up around mixed-race people all of my life. there are certain features beyond just the amount of melanin in a person's skins that can tip you off to someone's ethnicity. lincoln has features of someone with mixed blood, though it was probably very slight. lincoln's real father was probably someone with very light skin. lincoln came out quite light skinned but still with certain telling features.
look at someone like colin powell.
http://flickr.com/photos/7730691@N03/454610084/
if he had a child with a european woman, his children would still have african blood in them but would pass as white...just like lincoln. there would still be enough facial features for people who know what to look for to be able tell, but most white folks would see a white child.
i did not know about the 5 other black presidents until about a year and a half ago. i work in an office with predominately black co-workers. when i mentioned this idea to some of them, they already knew about it. it is only white folks who seem to be shocked! similar to how shocked some white folks were when it was revealed thomas jefferson had fathered some black children. inter-racial breeding happened more often back in lincoln's time than it does now. however, if you could pass as white, you were not discriminated against by white society. it was almost impossible to prove, so no one could have attacked lincoln since he was able to pass for white...mostly.
as to the casting choices, okri your comments are very odd. you say, "I'm more curious about why you think a white actor shouldn't play someone of mixed race, whereas it'd be okay for a black actor to do so. Seems like an odd double standard." at no point when you wrote that did you realize what the alternative would be? if a white actor would be too white, and a black actor would be too black...then maybe we should find someone who mostly looks white but has enough black features to better reflect lincoln's lineage! there have to be actor's out there with mixed heritage who could better match lincoln's similar background than some white actor.
this whole thing just reminds me of what went down with A BEAUTIFUL MIND. much of the attention focused on ron howard hiding john nash's bisexuality, but it bothered me more that they changed his wife's race from Hispanic to European. why was that necessary? was it to make the character more relatable to audiences in the midwest or something? why change her race? it just seems odd.
i know a biopic cannot be 100% accurate, but this does not seem to me to be a minor detail of lincoln's life. this seems like a major detail which should be addressed. it has been altered in history books for far too often, apparently to protect the delicate sensibilities of white people who cannot fathom someone being part black who did not explicitly look black. i just wish the movie had the courage to go there, but choosing liam neeson makes it pretty clear this is going to be reflective of how history has written lincoln rather than how he actually was.
Edited By rolotomasi99 on 1234670323
oscarguy, this was my source:
http://www.computerhealth.org/ebook/5blkpres.htm
some of the evidence was:
"William Herndon, Lincoln's law partner, said that Lincoln had very dark skin and coarse hair...and...Thomas Lincoln could not have been Abraham Lincoln's father because he was sterile from childhood mumps and was later castrated."
to me though, the best evidence is his face.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/torrez/93279075/
i have grown up around mixed-race people all of my life. there are certain features beyond just the amount of melanin in a person's skins that can tip you off to someone's ethnicity. lincoln has features of someone with mixed blood, though it was probably very slight. lincoln's real father was probably someone with very light skin. lincoln came out quite light skinned but still with certain telling features.
look at someone like colin powell.
http://flickr.com/photos/7730691@N03/454610084/
if he had a child with a european woman, his children would still have african blood in them but would pass as white...just like lincoln. there would still be enough facial features for people who know what to look for to be able tell, but most white folks would see a white child.
i did not know about the 5 other black presidents until about a year and a half ago. i work in an office with predominately black co-workers. when i mentioned this idea to some of them, they already knew about it. it is only white folks who seem to be shocked! similar to how shocked some white folks were when it was revealed thomas jefferson had fathered some black children. inter-racial breeding happened more often back in lincoln's time than it does now. however, if you could pass as white, you were not discriminated against by white society. it was almost impossible to prove, so no one could have attacked lincoln since he was able to pass for white...mostly.
as to the casting choices, okri your comments are very odd. you say, "I'm more curious about why you think a white actor shouldn't play someone of mixed race, whereas it'd be okay for a black actor to do so. Seems like an odd double standard." at no point when you wrote that did you realize what the alternative would be? if a white actor would be too white, and a black actor would be too black...then maybe we should find someone who mostly looks white but has enough black features to better reflect lincoln's lineage! there have to be actor's out there with mixed heritage who could better match lincoln's similar background than some white actor.
this whole thing just reminds me of what went down with A BEAUTIFUL MIND. much of the attention focused on ron howard hiding john nash's bisexuality, but it bothered me more that they changed his wife's race from Hispanic to European. why was that necessary? was it to make the character more relatable to audiences in the midwest or something? why change her race? it just seems odd.
i know a biopic cannot be 100% accurate, but this does not seem to me to be a minor detail of lincoln's life. this seems like a major detail which should be addressed. it has been altered in history books for far too often, apparently to protect the delicate sensibilities of white people who cannot fathom someone being part black who did not explicitly look black. i just wish the movie had the courage to go there, but choosing liam neeson makes it pretty clear this is going to be reflective of how history has written lincoln rather than how he actually was.
Edited By rolotomasi99 on 1234670323
"When it comes to the subject of torture, I trust a woman who was married to James Cameron for three years."
-- Amy Poehler in praise of Zero Dark Thirty director Kathryn Bigelow
-- Amy Poehler in praise of Zero Dark Thirty director Kathryn Bigelow
Are there any known actors with these characteristics?danfrank wrote:Let me see if I have this right: it's absolutely clear that Lincoln should only be portrayed by a tall (but not too strapping) bisexual octoroon with sunken cheeks. If evidence surfaces that he was intersexed, we'll have to add that to the mix as well.
"It's the least most of us can do, but less of us will do more."
I think it's interesting that both sides are taking a hardline position here. Rolo says that "Lincoln had black blood in him." Others seem certain he didn't. The approach I've always taken since hearing the suggestion of Lincoln's African ancestry is to keep an open mind. I wouldn't be surprised if it were true but that he either didn't know it, or kept it quiet so as not to provide fodder for his political rivals. I'm still waiting for reliable, definitive proof, too. But I'm not going to categorically refuse to believe something based on lack of information.
I am intrigued by Okri's question as well.
I am intrigued by Okri's question as well.