Osama Bin Laden Killed

[ITALIANO]

Don't the yahoos who were dancing in the streets realize that they're behaving the same way as some in the Arab world who danced and celebrated on 9/11, filling Americans of every stripe with revulsion and anger?

This is exactly what I thought. And they also thought that justice had been done - that evil America had finally been punished.

I found that behavior atrocious back then. I don't see why I should consider THIS behavior better today.

[Damien]

Don't the yahoos who were dancing in the streets realize that they're behaving the same way as some in the Arab world who danced and celebrated on 9/11, filling Americans of every stripe with revulsion and anger?

[Big Magilla]

I'm just wondering how long it will be until we demand to see the body.

It's not going to be too long. There's a lot of money to be gained from fear-mongering and FOX News has tapped into that. What if the boogeyman is still out there? What if we're being lied to again. How long until we're going to demand to see the boogeyman's corpse? What good is that going to do? I can't think of anything more...I'm being told "desecratory" isn't a word, but I think it should be.

The whole thing was captured live by a camera in the one of the Navy Seals' helmets and conveyed to the helicopter where it was picked up on satellite and shown to Obama and someone else (I forget who) in the Situation Room of th White House. Leon Pinetta watched it live in his CIA conference room. The whole thign was narrated by an Army General.

I'm sure pictures were taken of the corpse and the burial at sea filmed as well, but if if all this is shown on international TV there will still be those claiming it's all Hollywood trickery.

[ITALIANO]

unlike Marco, I refuse to place genocides and horrible events within the context of a dick measuring context,

You are right, but I didn't mean that. I just meant that things must be put in the right context, and some Americans have a tendency to only consider what happens in their own little garden. The world is bigger, and it also has a longer history.

If only Americans focused on other facts and events, on other massacres, on other tragedies (some caused by Americans themselves by the way, or by the rulers that they have elected), it would be a different America, a better one.

But for the moment it's still Sonic Youth's America.

[Sabin]

I keep thinking about the fact that "we are in possession of his body."

It's not that so many Americans don't believe in Barack Obama's American citizenship or continue to not believe it after re-releasing it (to be fair, I don't recall how many times exactly he has revealed it), but rather that we demand it to be shown. I think Americans feel disempowered to an incredible degree. In Iran, twitter is used as a means for helping the outside world understand there plight. In America, it's used for Osama Bin Laden jokes. All of this conceals the fact that we don't believe what we are being told to an incredible degree.

I bring this up because I'm just wondering how long it will be until we demand to see the body.

It's not going to be too long. There's a lot of money to be gained from fear-mongering and FOX News has tapped into that. What if the boogeyman is still out there? What if we're being lied to again. How long until we're going to demand to see the boogeyman's corpse? What good is that going to do? I can't think of anything more...I'm being told "desecratory" isn't a word, but I think it should be.

I don't think an hour has gone by where I haven't seen, read, or heard "We got him." I'm thrilled he's out of the picture and, unlike Marco, I refuse to place genocides and horrible events within the context of a dick measuring context, but I wish he was alive and on trial and it was 2005 when it would have meant more. Or if it was in 2002 and the entire War in Iraq could have been averted. Or am I being naive there too? Probably.

[ITALIANO]

How would anyone who is a caricature know whether they were one or not? I suppose I'm one to you, maybe?

Not really, a poor idiot maybe, but unfortunately not a caricature.

[ITALIANO]

MovieWes - I said: in the context of history. Study history (not only American history) and you will see that I am right.

9/11 is the most significant event in the world to happen within my lifetime. And not just because of the loss of life on that day. It is more because of how it changed American society in general and, more explicitly, the events that were either directly or indirectly triggered as a result (the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq). The events and attitudes that were sparked as a result of 9/11 have touched every single American, regardless of race, religion, gender, orientation, etc. And 9/11 really reaches even further than the U.S. (since I know that you're gonna get on my case if I don't bring the rest of the world into this discussion).

The United States is not the only country involved in the "War on Terrorism" (yeah, that's what I'm calling it, regardless of whether or not people are offended by the term). Besides American forces, there have been soldiers from Great Britain, Canada, Australia, Spain, France, Germany, Belgium, Austria, Poland, Armenia, Estonia, Denmark, Georgia, South Korea, Moldova, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, the Ukraine, Lithuania, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mongolia, Romania, Nicaragua, the Dominican Republic, New Zealand, Japan, Italy, Slovakia, Thailand, Norway, Hungary, Singapore, Macedonia, and Latvia stationed in the Middle East at some point. Not all of them are still there, but there are many countries besides the U.S. that still are. And much of this can be attributed to the attacks on 9/11. Maybe not directly -- I honestly don't believe that Iraq was in any way related, at least at first, to the attack on 9/11, even though the government tries to use it as a blanket for the entire Middle Eastern conflict now -- but at least indirectly. I'll at least say that I doubt that we'd be over there right now if 9/11 had never happened.

And so what if the attacks of 9/11 are dwarfed by world events such as the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, or WWI and WWII? It is still a major atrocity and not minor in the least. 3,000 people dying in one day is not minor. If you consider that minor, then you're either a total idiot or you need to have your head examined.

Well, but it seems that the world didn't start the moment you were born. A few facts happened even before, and that's why I think you should humbly read a few books and study these things.

Plus, "significant" is a subjective thing - I don't know how old you are, though I'm afraid that you might be older than you seem to be... But for example if I think about MY lifetime (and I don't see why I shouldn't compare it with yours) I find other facts - like the first man on the moon (though this happened a few days before my birth) or the fall of the wall of Berlin more significant. Question of perspective, I guess - but, as I said, it's subjective.

Did it change Anerican society? Well, it was about time then, let me say this. Did it lead to other events? In history all facts are connected - oh but sorry, this is again history. Anyway, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were American choices, choices that could have been avoided.

I agree with you a bit more when you point out that other countries were and are still involved in the war against terrorism. True. So Moviewes, shouldn't Osama Bin Laden have been judged by those other countries as well? But I suppose that Americans remember that other countries exist only when it's good for them.

If you say - and you are perfectly right - that the attacks of 9/11 are dwarfed by other historical events like the Holocaust or the Crusades, you agree with me - in the context of history, it's something minor. So who is the idiot between you and me, Moviewes? Just admit it, it's not the end of the world after all.

And honestly I am a bit tired of those Americans that can only think of America,and only in American terms - without trying to understand the deepest reasons why some facts happen, even American facts like you proudly say September 11 is. There ARE reasons, Moviewes, and of some of these reasons America may be partly responsible. 3000 deaths may be minor compared to other kinds of massacres.

But nobody says this in America? I can't believe it - what I say would be considered so obvious in Europe.

[Sonic Youth]

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, princess.

You didn't hurt my feelings and I'm not your princess - though deep inside I'm sure you hope I was.

I don't have time to read links and anyway I actually meant ORIGINAL rational ideas, which it seems you can't have.

Anyway I'm not a caricature, and seriously, I kindly advice you not to say it again.

You look like you have plenty of time, at least today, and anyway nobody in this thread has ANY original ideas. Not you, me or anyone else. Everything that's being said has been said elsewhere, whether they're being said today, prior to today, or afterwards. We may as well start a thread about the pros and cons of the death penalty. (Oh, wait. We tried that once. How illuminating THAT was.)

How would anyone who is a caricature know whether they were one or not? I suppose I'm one to you, maybe?

The princess comeback did make me laugh, however.

[Sonic Youth]

Geez, I take an hour to watch The Killing, and look what I missed.

I view this the same way I do the end of the Cold War: long-established policy led to it, but the president standing there when it happens gets a special pat on the back.

With all due respect, no way. I know it's been over two years since our national nightmare has passed, but have we already forgotten that Bush let the bin Laden thread of his "War on Terror" go and instead decided to focus on Iraq instead? Whatever policy may have been in place was mostly discarded. Obama had to refocus the mission in order to capture him. It's not like he had seven years of progress to draw on.

[ITALIANO]

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, princess.

You didn't hurt my feelings and I'm not your princess - though deep inside I'm sure you hope I was.

I don't have time to read links and anyway I actually meant ORIGINAL rational ideas, which it seems you can't have.

Anyway I'm not a caricature, and seriously, I kindly advice you not to say it again.

[MovieWes]

MovieWes - I said: in the context of history. Study history (not only American history) and you will see that I am right.

9/11 is the most significant event in the world to happen within my lifetime. And not just because of the loss of life on that day. It is more because of how it changed American society in general and, more explicitly, the events that were either directly or indirectly triggered as a result (the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq). The events and attitudes that were sparked as a result of 9/11 have touched every single American, regardless of race, religion, gender, orientation, etc. And 9/11 really reaches even further than the U.S. (since I know that you're gonna get on my case if I don't bring the rest of the world into this discussion).

The United States is not the only country involved in the "War on Terrorism" (yeah, that's what I'm calling it, regardless of whether or not people are offended by the term). Besides American forces, there have been soldiers from Great Britain, Canada, Australia, Spain, France, Germany, Belgium, Austria, Poland, Armenia, Estonia, Denmark, Georgia, South Korea, Moldova, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, the Ukraine, Lithuania, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mongolia, Romania, Nicaragua, the Dominican Republic, New Zealand, Japan, Italy, Slovakia, Thailand, Norway, Hungary, Singapore, Macedonia, and Latvia stationed in the Middle East at some point. Not all of them are still there, but there are many countries besides the U.S. that still are. And much of this can be attributed to the attacks on 9/11. Maybe not directly -- I honestly don't believe that Iraq was in any way related, at least at first, to the attack on 9/11, even though the government tries to use it as a blanket for the entire Middle Eastern conflict now -- but at least indirectly. I'll at least say that I doubt that we'd be over there right now if 9/11 had never happened.

And so what if the attacks of 9/11 are dwarfed by world events such as the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, or WWI and WWII? It is still a major atrocity and not minor in the least. 3,000 people dying in one day is not minor. If you consider that minor, then you're either a total idiot or you need to have your head examined.



Edited By MovieWes on 1304362286

[Sonic Youth]

Sonic Youth, Oscar Guy... your reactions are so typical and so childish. Yes, I ruined your moment of happiness, I know. But for example, Oscar Guy, instead of insulting me and calling me a troll, please tell: where am I wrong? This is what we do in Europe. We reply with RATIONAL IDEAS. I'm anxiously waiting for yours.

Say what? I DID give you rational ideas. I provided two links to two excellent writers giving their thoughts on the matter which to an extent reflect my own... and, more importantly, even reflect your thoughts to an extent. I encourage everybody to read them. The only issue I took was how you addressed yourself. Sorry if I hurt your feelings, princess.

P.S. Everyone's forgetting that had he been captured the end result would have been the same. It just would have taken longer. Don't anyone fool themselves into thinking otherwise.



Edited By Sonic Youth on 1304362308

[ITALIANO]

And had he been captured and not killed, you would have found some other reason to attack the U.S. and its operation.

This is absolutely not true - but it's good to see that, as you can't rationally contradict what I say, your only way is to contradict what I "would say", according to you.

As I said before: he should have been captured, not killed. And not only for a question of morals or, as Big Magilla puts it, of being "humane" (though a trial is objectively more human than a quick, arbitrary murder) - but because it would have been a much more effective way of going to the roots of terrorism. See? I look at America's interest more than American themselves.

Also, Oscar Guy... "shining moment", "reached its climax"... this kind of prose is good for the Oscars, but in politics and in history there aren't moments (shining or not - and I don't see this as so shining), but causes and effects. This isn't like a football match, where we must celebrate a victory over the rival team - it's about the international situation, something much less banal. Not all emotions are correct, and in this case the crowds are blind as so often crowds are.

[Big Magilla]

I don't think all this dancing in the streets is elation over one man's death but rather the symbolic notion that his death means closure to the events of 9/11 and renewed optimism that the troops can come home now.

Well, the vast majority of Americans who were killed and injured in Iraq were all killed and injured after Saddam Hussein was captured. Likewise, I think the killing of Osama bin Laden will have no noticeable impact on the United States presence in Afghanistan.

Of course not. I was referring to the dancing crowds.

I don't disagree with Italiano and Damien that the apparent expressed jubilaiton is wrong, but I disagree that that we should have taken him into arrest and gone through a lengthy trial which would have prolonged the agony for him as well as us. Shootng him in the eye was, alas, more humane.



Edited By Big Magilla on 1304357179

[Big Magilla]

Bin Laden himself had been out of the loop and apparently living in luxury in his walled compound in Pakistan for the last six years.

If this is indeed true, do you really think the American Government was not aware of this all along........or the Pakistani Government and Intelligence agencies for that matter? There was no way he was living where he was found without the knowledge of both Governments. The real question is why they allowed him to live there and why at this point in time he was exposed and killed.

We have suspected for years that he was hiding somewhere in Pakistan and not necessarily in a cave in the mountains.

Neighbors interviewed today say they suspected something but never saw bin Laden or anyone recognizable come or go from the compound.

This all eminated from a tip from a Guantanomo cative last August. Obama refused to allow a drone attack on the compound and insisted on the boots on the ground operation that would prove conclusively that "we got him".

The plan all along was to kill, not capture him. Ten years ago the order was to bring his head home (to the U.S.) in a box. That the Navy gave him a proper Muslim burial at sea was certainly a more reasoned end than that.