The Marriage Debate

[Penelope]

Meanwhile, celebrities continue to speak out:

LOS ANGELES, Calif. -- George Clooney has spoken out for the first time about the passing of Prop. 8, the newly enacted California ballot measure that bans same-sex marriages -- and the activist actor thinks the law is on the wrong side of history.

"At some point in our lifetime, gay marriage won't be an issue," he told E! Online. "Everyone who stood against this civil right will look as outdated as George Wallace standing on the school steps keeping James Hood from entering the University of Alabama because he was black."

George isn't the only Hollywood heavyweight to blast the bill. Stars ranging from Melissa Etheridge to Rose McGowan have spoken out and participated in protests following the bill's passing. Melissa even wrote on her Web site last week that she would consider stopping to pay state taxes since she was a "second class citizen."

"Gay people are born everyday," she wrote. "You will never legislate that away."

Many celebs have been seen at the Los Angeles area rallies in the last week calling to overturn Prop. 8 - amongst others: Drew Barrymore, James Franco, Wanda Sykes, Rose McGowan, Wilson Cruz and Ricki Lake.

[OscarGuy]

So, people shouldn't protest and boycott? I mean that's all that was going on. People voiced a concern that someone in a position of power over an industry that gays and lesbians have a large investment in was donating to causes that specifically go against that community wishes. Sure, the board could have let him stay on, but the protests and boycott would have hurt them.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but I have the right to protest and boycott anyone or any institution that willingly supports issues that are at odds with my own.

You can consider it McCarthyism if you want, but did you know that the Assemblies of God prohibit non-denominational people and anyone involved in their personal lives with issues at odds with their doctrine from working for them? The only reason they are allowed to discriminate is because they don't receive Federal money. No, I don't like what they do, but that's their bigotry they are entitled to under the Freedom of Religion and the Freedom of Speech.

I agree that this guy has the right to say and think and do whatever he sees fit, but everyone else should not be called out for calling for a boycott of the theater's work or refusing to work under his direction because of that action.

The board did not fire him. He resigned. Yes, he may have been pressured, but if he felt that strongly about it, he would have stayed on and let them dislodge him and thereby set up a legal battle over the issue.

Sure, the theatre would have eventually gotten past the protests and the boycotts as most protests and boycotts do.

And, let me reiterate. They did NOT fire him. Matter of fact, the article suggests that the meeting was to take place over the matter. He stepped down before the meeting occurred, so I think you're overreacting a little bit. I applaud his decision to step down, though. Not because I agree he should have been let go or that he's doing the right thing, but because I think he showed a great deal of courage and strength in doing so. He knew his presence would cause problems and stepped down so as not to cause undue and unneeded turmoil for the arts. That he loved them enough to allow step away from him so that things could go unhindered during the storm is a selfless act.

If he stepped down because he was pressured to do so and not out of some noble act, then he is every bit as culpable for the situation as those who pressured him to do so.

[Penelope]

I think--and realize that I'm still working this out in my head--I think the key difference is that the men and women who were blacklisted in the McCarthy era received that treatment simply for supporting the ideology of communism, the blacklisting being an extreme reaction because they had not actively worked to overthrow the government; in this case, the individual did more than support a religious ideology, he actively worked to implement that ideology into law. It's a thin line, still.



Edited By Penelope on 1226519136

[FilmFan720]

In this case, the theater board really had no choice but to ask him to resign.

No, they did have a choice, and that is put faith in their chosen leader and let him do his work. Instead, they caved to a flurry of scandal.

[FilmFan720]

Pen, I got all the emails and links from my friends in the theater industry, and have been thinking the same thing. I find it shocking that Eckern did what he did, and he had to have known that it would come out, but at the same time the way the gay community has reacted is deplorable. This is a new McCarthyism, or could be the beginning of it. I hadn't heard he resigned, and I find that sad.

[OscarGuy]

Is the theater considered a public medium or a private one?

Also, for years, people have been forced to resign for foibles and errors they made in judgment that, to one side aren't so bad, but to others are horrendous.

Scandal is bad for business and even when people are innocent of crimes, a negative attachment to an issue, even if later refuted, can be detrimental. In this case, the theater board really had no choice but to ask him to resign.

[Penelope]

That's a good point, Eric, thanks.

Incidently, for laughs, did anybody see Dan Savage's appearance on The Colbert Report last night? It's laugh-out-loud hilarious.

[Eric]

I have to admit, I'm a bit torn about this: on the one hand, we need to make people aware that denying gay men and women our natural rights as citizens is wrong and has consequences; but is forcing, essentially, the firing of an individual the right response, isn't it almost McCarthy-esque?

In the private sector? Yes.

[Penelope]

I want your thoughts: over the past weekend, a flurry of attention in the gay blogosphere and gossip forums, especially those oriented towards the theater, was focused on one Scott Eckern, the Artistic Director for the California Musical Theatre in Sacramento, who had donated $1,000 to the Yes on 8 campaign; Mr. Eckern is apparently a Mormon who once refused to allow Dr. Jeckyll to rip open his shirt, despite the fact that the script calls for it, in a production of the musical Jeckyll & Hyde.

All donations, whether to the Yes campaign or the No campaign, are public knowledge, and, apparently, each person is required (why, I don't know) to specify their employment. Somebody digging discovered his name and the fact that his donation was generated by working for a theater that not only employs gay men and women, but also produces shows by gay men and women: last summer, Hairspray; currently, Forever Plaid; in the spring, Avenue Q.

Mr. Eckern's name was spread around by blogs and forums, resulting in a call of a boycott of the Theatre. Even Marc Shaiman, composer of Hairspray, voiced his displeasure, both publically and in calls to the theatre higher-ups and Mr. Eckern himself. I believe other Broadway luminaries were also involved, but less publically.

Mr. Eckern tried to diffuse the situation by "apologizing"--not admitting that his views are wrong, but that he "may have hurt people"--and donated $1,000 to the Human Rights Campaign. Apparently, this didn't help. The Theatre had an emergency board meeting yesterday afternoon; today, Mr. Eckern submitted his resignation, and issued a statement that included the fact (amazing to others in the blogosphere, but not to me, as I have Mormon relatives) that his sister is a lesbian and "I am loving and supportive of her and her family, and she is loving and supportive of me and my family.... I definitely do not support any message or treatment of others that is hateful or instills fear."

I have to admit, I'm a bit torn about this: on the one hand, we need to make people aware that denying gay men and women our natural rights as citizens is wrong and has consequences; but is forcing, essentially, the firing of an individual the right response, isn't it almost McCarthy-esque?

I've been thinking about this, and rainBard's dilemma regarding Sundance and Utah, and I really don't know where to come down on this. Thoughts? Comments?

[OscarGuy]

I don't like Arnie very much in political terms, but at least he's willing to go to bat for the right things at times:

Schwarzenegger Urges Supreme Court To Overturn Proposition 8

10 November 2008 11:28 AM, PST

Movie star-turned-California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is urging the state Supreme Court to overturn the controversial bill that banned gay marriage last week.

The Proposition 8 bill was voted in earlier this month, overturning an earlier ruling legalising same-sex unions in the state.

In an interview on network CNN on Sunday he said, "It's unfortunate, obviously, but it's not the end. I think that we will again maybe undo that, if the court is willing to do that, and then move forward from there and again lead in that area."

Speaking to gay marriage supporters he added, "I learned that you should never ever give up... They should never give up. They should be on it and on it until they get it done."

Gay unions were legalised in the state in May, which led to a flurry of celebrity weddings including TV host Ellen DeGeneres' marriage to longtime partner Portia de Rossi in August.



Edited By OscarGuy on 1226350652

[anonymous1980]

For one celebrity, voting on the ballot measure itself didn't make sense. In a rambling message posted on her MySpace blog Friday, former Hole frontwoman Courtney Love wrote that the language on the California ballot "was confusing and people were voting yes when they meant no or something."

I have a feeling this is one of the major reasons it got defeated. I got confused sometimes myself just reading about it.



Edited By anonymous on 1226246186

[Penelope]

Hollywood joins the furor over gay marriage ban
Nov. 7, 2008, 8:00 PM EST
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Thousands of protesters are angry about California's ban on gay marriage — and so are the stars.

Many celebrities grieved the passing of Proposition 8 in California this week. Some — such as Wanda Sykes, Rose McGowan and Lance Bass — attended a Wednesday protest criticizing the state's gay marriage ban. Others — like Ellen DeGeneres, Rosie O'Donnell, Madonna and Melissa Etheridge — vented their frustrations online, on TV, and onstage.

Blocks away from the Thursday rally of more than 2,000 gay-rights advocates outside the gates of a Mormon temple, several stars — including James Cromwell, Patricia Clarkson, Anjelica Huston and Sean Penn — said they supported the protesters while walking the red carpet at the BAFTA L.A. Brittania Awards at Hyatt Regency Century Plaza Hotel.

"I think it might be an idea to go out and join them shortly," Penn said. "It was a shameful decision that was made."

Etheridge, who exchanged vows with her longtime partner in a 2003 ceremony, declared in a blog entry posted Thursday on TheDailyBeast.com that she wouldn't pay her taxes. The gay Oscar- and Grammy-winning singer-songwriter said that without the right to marry in California, she didn't think she should have to pay taxes because "I am not a full citizen."

"I don't mean to get too personal here," Etheridge wrote. "But there is a lot I can do with the extra half a million dollars that I will be keeping instead of handing it over to the state of California. Oh, and I am sure Ellen will be a little excited to keep her bazillion bucks that she pays in taxes, too."

DeGeneres, on her show and the show's Web site, provided a brief message of support Friday for President-elect Obama and the gay-rights advocates protesting Proposition 8. The talk show host, who married actress Portia de Rossi in August, previously donated $100,000 against the ballot initiative and starred in a commercial lamenting the measure.

"So there was a demonstration here on Wednesday night," DeGeneres told the audience, "and just before I walked out here, I was watching the news and there is a huge, huge, peaceful demonstration going on in the streets, and I say, good for you, and I support you, and if I weren't here, I'd be out there with you."

O'Donnell, who lives in New York, responded to comments and questions about her stance on the issue on her Web site. When one person said he understood why she didn't come out against the proposition, O'Donnell responded: "I AM AGAINST PROP 8. DUH." She also wrote she believes the estimated 18,000 gay marriages would be annulled "like mine was years ago."

The former talk show host, who lives with partner Kelli Carpenter and their four children, publicly wed Carpenter in San Francisco in 2004, two weeks after Mayor Gavin Newsom authorized granting marriage licenses to same-sex couples. The licenses were later voided by the California Supreme Court.

Also ranting online was celebrity disc jockey Samantha Ronson. Lindsay Lohan's gal pal blogged Thursday that she was shocked that California voters approved an animal-rights initiative but that ballot measures about gay marriage and adoption in California, Florida, Arizona and Arkansas were shot down.

"I guess people care more about farm animals than they do their fellow man, that's really sad to me," Ronson wrote on her MySpace blog. "Yes, I am glad that the chickens will have more room and better conditions as they wait to die, but I just think it's frightening that people show more compassion for tomorrow's dinner than for the chef."

Other celebs used time in the spotlight to decry the decision. Madonna took a moment during her concert at Dodger Stadium to declare to the audience that she was sad "because African-Americans are equal finally, but gay marriage is not."

Singer Christina Aguilera also spoke out against the ban.

"I think it's discrimination," Aguilera said in a Thursday interview with MTV News. "I don't understand how people can be so closed-minded and so judgmental. We chose an African-American president who means so much in a time in history of great change and open-mindedness. Why is this any different? It just doesn't make sense to me."

For one celebrity, voting on the ballot measure itself didn't make sense. In a rambling message posted on her MySpace blog Friday, former Hole frontwoman Courtney Love wrote that the language on the California ballot "was confusing and people were voting yes when they meant no or something."

[rain Bard]

Cam, Magilla, I appreciate your input. I'm starting to see more clearly what kind of language I'd use to frame my decision if I ultimately decide to publicize it.

Cam, your #3 point is particularly crystalizing. If I really thought I had a chance to make a good profit off of a trip to the festival, instead of taking a net loss, would my decision be any different? It's hard to say because it's such a hypothetical, but it may be that it would. I could easily rationalize with the help of articles like this and this. The festival is a fun time; the movies I pick are usually good and even if they aren't it's fun to write about them so early in their lifespans. I have a very good friend who lives in Salt Lake City and several other friends who regularly attend the festival. For the past two years, even though I've been paid to report, I've ultimately thought of the trip more as an inexpensive vacation than a career opportunity. But my (at best)
semi-professional status may be exactly what puts me in the position to take a stand at all- if I were an ambitious working critic instead of a dabbler I'd probably feel I NEEDED to go to the festival, just to keep up with my competition and stay relevant. Which makes it seem all the more logical for me to make my feelings known, even if the strength of my protest is far weaker than it would be if I were somebody like Manohla Dargis or Kenneth Turan (or even Karina Longworth or Erik Davis).

[cam]

1. Brian, as a reporter, there are plenty of places that you have to go that you would rather not go, and Utah--to you-- is just one of these. It could be to cover a genocide in Congo.
2. Are you "big enough potatoes" that you make such a stand? If so, you can afford to be disenchanted with going to Utah. And people will care.
3. It sounds like you would LIKE to go, if you had enough money to partly subsidize it. If you would prefer NOT to go, that is another matter. The public doesn't have to know why...

[Big Magilla]

It wouldn't be disingenuous for you to say you were undecided about attending this year but that the SLC based Mormon involvement in the defeat of Prop. 8 made your decision easy.

Don't be so hard on Solano County. A healthy percentage of us voted against the proposition, including many of my neighbors. We were also the only county that didn't immediately stop issuing same-sex marriage licenses the morning after.