Web of Sex Scandals

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Sonic Youth
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sonic Youth » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:06 am

Mister Tee wrote:
I'm thinking in very short order -- maybe a few months, maybe a year or two -- Franken will be in the books like a blacklist victim: as a shameful example of someone unfairly destroyed by the hysteria of the times.


There's another possibility. Perhaps you will see this differently with the passage of time, and wonder with amazement how you could have been so out of step with your thinking back then. I'm not saying that will happen. I'm just saying, maybe we shouldn't be so presumptuous while we're still on the-day-of. Everybody thinks they are right - about anything - and we believe that in time the rest of the country will come around to our way of thinking and we'll be vindicated. This will only be true for some of us. Who knows? Nobody does, and I certainly don't know. But I do know that we are in a really turbulent point in our history, and while we're deep in the middle of it we're not exactly going to have an objective, panoramic outlook on everything that's happening now.

Bog wrote:All in a matter of 5 days we're going to add a Moore and subtract a Franken


But we're not going to subtract a Democrat! If you're upset for the sake of Al Franken himself, I can understand that. If you really liked him (which I did), or if you think he's personally being railroaded, that's one issue. But if we're only talking about the political ramifications, then I really don't see the drawback (about Franken, I mean. Moore is a very different story.)

Mister Tee wrote:Unless it turns out there are verified stories to which we're not privy but other Senators are,


This really is the subordinate clause that everything hinges on, isn't it? I'm a little amazed how people are waving this off as a weak conditional, when it seems self-evident to me that this is exactly the case. How can there NOT be stories that these senators are privy to? Have we forgotten the Hollywood scandals already? Just about everyone who was accused of being a predator/rapist/whatever was known within the industry to be just that. It was an open secret that you had to be careful when you were around Harvey, Kevin Spacey, James Toback, Charlie Rose or Matt Lauer. Maybe not everyone in Hollywood knew it, maybe not everyone knew any specific details, but enough people - a substantial number - knew it, and some participated in helping to cover it up. In fact, when celebrities like Meryl Streep declared how outraged they were at these revelations and that they knew nothing about it beforehand, many of us reacted derisively. I assume the senate is even more clubby than Hollywood, and the idea that they may know more stories about him is more than a little theoretical. And I would suggest that maybe we should consider that's the basis for the senate not supporting him... at least, not until there were eight separate accusations.

Do I have proof of this? Nope, at least no more proof than anyone else has that this is one big, coordinated falsehood. But let's not forget that first there was one accusation. Then there were two accusations. Then there were three accusations. Then there were four accusations. Then there were five accusations. Then there were six accusations. Then there were seven accusations. Then there were eight accusations. And in less than a month. Are any of these accusations, taken singly, heinous enough for a man to lose his job? Not in my mind. But do you seriously believe the number was going to stop at eight? As I said before, if there were two accusations, it's possible there could be eight accusations. Now that there are eight, there could be fifteen. And if there are fifteen, there could be thirty. What, exactly, is the senate supposed to do? Wait until it gets to Cosby numbers? Weinstein numbers? Toback numbers? Or were they supposed to defend him from every accusation? Sure, the Democrats could do the honorable thing and defend him until their poll numbers flatline. But how would they make a convincing case of it when they CLEARLY were not convinced themselves? Shitty as it may be, this was bleeding that had to be stanched. Call it "spineless" if it makes you all feel better. But think of the long game. I think the word is more likely "practicable".
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sabin » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:04 am

So...I just watched Al Franken's resignation...

If he did it, he didn't admit it. If he didn't do it, he's not fighting. It's probably a mixture of the two, but I'm starting to think he's resigning more for the latter than the former.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sabin » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:42 pm

Mister Tee wrote
Could you find that quote for me? Because i don't recall him saying ANYTHING like that.

Nope. I’ve just spent some time searching but I thought for sure he said something like “There might be others...” but apparently I’m mistaken or just can’t find it.

Mister Tee wrote
I'm a little confused about your antecedent here. What "did that" does this refer to? Till I know that for sure, I can't tell if I agree or disagree with you.

I was referring to the incident I had just described. The Leean Tweeden account of him forcibly kissing her and taking a photo of her pretending to grab her breasts.
"If you are marching with white nationalists, you are by definition not a very nice person. If Malala Yousafzai had taken part in that rally, you'd have to say 'Okay, I guess Malala sucks now.'" ~ John Oliver

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Mister Tee » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:45 pm

Sabin wrote:I have a lot of thoughts about the Al Franken, but it's hard to fight for someone who, when these accusations first began, said something along the lines of "There have been others."


Could you find that quote for me? Because i don't recall him saying ANYTHING like that.

Sabin wrote:Let's put aside comparisons to Roy Moore and President Trump for a second. If someone did that to your sister or girlfriend or wife or friend...you'd kick the shit out of them, right? It's bad.


I'm a little confused about your antecedent here. What "did that" does this refer to? Till I know that for sure, I can't tell if I agree or disagree with you.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Bog » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:30 pm

All in a matter of 5 days we're going to add a Moore and subtract a Franken...and the most sickening part from a political standpoint...when/if Murkowski or Ernst or Collins or Fischer or Capito get loud and make her Gillibrand-esque demands...the response from Moore will be 'thanks, but no thanks'...and McConnell will simply say we allowed the voters to ultimately make the decision and they have...our hands are tied.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sabin » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:19 pm

I have a lot of thoughts about the Al Franken, but it's hard to fight for someone who, when these accusations first began, said something along the lines of "There have been others." That's sort of on you for being a creep. However, this is Tina Dupuy's story...

This was my first inauguration. I’d never been in the proverbial room where it happens. My experience with government at that point was being a ward of the court in foster care. Noting that I had an interest in politics and in grandstanding—at 14, I ran a scorched-earth campaign to make the entire group home I lived in recycle—my foster dad set up an internship for me at the district office of Representative George Miller. The summer before my senior year of high school, as an intern, I answered calls, thumbed through the congressional record and misalphabetized his constituent files. It was a great experience and, at the time, the closest I’d been to power.

D.C. was decked out and packed in for the inauguration of a young and popular new president. The town was buzzing with optimism, and one of the many events on our list was a swanky Media Matters party with Democratic notables everywhere. Then I saw Al Franken. I only bug celebrities for pictures when it’ll make my foster mom happy. She loves Franken, so I asked to get a picture with him. We posed for the shot. He immediately put his hand on my waist, grabbing a handful of flesh. I froze. Then he squeezed. At least twice.

I’d been married for two years at the time; I don’t let my husband touch me like that in public because I believe it diminishes me as a professional woman. Al Franken’s familiarity was inappropriate and unwanted. It was also quick; he knew exactly what he was doing.


Now, nothing like this has ever happened to me and I'm not denying that it's inappropriate, overly familiar conduct. But it's not in the same league as his first offense, where he forcibly kissed that woman on stage during a rehearsal and posed for a photo where he pretended to grope her breasts. Let's put aside comparisons to Roy Moore and President Trump for a second. If someone did that to your sister or girlfriend or wife or friend...you'd kick the shit out of them, right? It's bad.

But this story strikes me as...well, not a big deal. It's clear that the reason why Franken is stepping down is the stories keep adding up. To me, this one's not really a story.
Last edited by Sabin on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Mister Tee » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:32 pm

Unless it turns out there are verified stories to which we're not privy but other Senators are, I'm with Magilla on this: I think this is Dems caving to a Twitter mob much like they did when they fired Shirley Sherrod (how many even remember her?).

The accusations against Franken are sketchy in the extreme, and even if every one is true, to conflate them with what predators like Moore and Weinstein have done -- or even less-overt, run-of-the-mill harassers like your manager at work who keeps commenting on the size of your butt -- is to lose all perspective and turn this into sexual McCarthyism.

Maybe it's just the people I know, but my Facebook feed (way dominated by liberal Dems) is furious that Franken has been railroaded like this. Women actually seem to be the MOST opposed -- with some who have been seriously harassed or assaulted saying it trivializes their experiences to have what they went through lumped in with something like what Franken's been accused of (and, now, been denied the right to confront/rebut).

There's always been a dilemma with sexual offenses like this, in that they're often unwitnessed and thus inherently he said-she said. Yes, it's disgraceful that for centuries women have taken the brunt of not being believed, but to expect to remedy that by taking every accusation as truth is excruciatingly naive. It used to be liberals who wrote cautionary tales like The Crucible and The Children's Hour; now too many are on the side of "kill 'em all and let god sort 'em out".

Especially given the mendacity we've seen from the Republican right over the past quarter-century, how could anyone fail to see how they'd weaponize this "all women must be believed without investigation" to attack opponents?

NOTE: I'm not saying any of this in defense of John Conyers. He has multiple identified accusers, accusers with no political axe to grind, and a track record of making cash payments to them. He's had a level of due process that Franken was denied.

I'm thinking in very short order -- maybe a few months, maybe a year or two -- Franken will be in the books like a blacklist victim: as a shameful example of someone unfairly destroyed by the hysteria of the times.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Big Magilla » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:06 pm

Forced out by the sanctimonious female Democrats in the Senate. If all those women coming forward about Trump couldn't stop him from being elected last time, what makes them think railing against the Republicans as the party of sex abusers Trump and Moore is going to get them one single vote next year?

The Democrats have a strong chance of taking both the House and Senate next year, but only if they stick to bread and butter issues.

This whole thing could backfire, not only on the Democrats, but women in the workplace as well. We're already beginning to hear stories about male executives being afraid to hire women for fear that the slightest thing, a raised voice, a cuss word in a lady's presence, or something else that wasn't tolerated a hundred years ago, will result in a complaint of sexual harassment against them.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sonic Youth » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:46 am

Sonic Youth wrote:
Big Magilla wrote:Really? He grabbed her butt or that's where his hand landed when he pulled her in tight to take his umpteenth picture of the day? And in front of her husband? Give me a break.


First, let me clarify. What I should've said was I think it's likely that there will be more accusations coming up - maybe not, but I'm getting a bad feeling about where this is going - and if that's so, and if they are true, then he should step aside. I mean, he has to know there will be more accusations if they exist. He should just spare himself and his party the humiliation. I certainly don't think this incident BY ITSELF should be a career ender. Not at all.


And here we are.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Greg » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:10 pm

The Silence Breakers are TIME's 2017 Person of the Year:

https://www.today.com/news/silence-brea ... ar-t119689
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby ITALIANO » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:19 pm

Sonic Youth wrote:
ITALIANO wrote: There's something deeply disturbing in all this, and no, I am not referring to the accused men for once.


"For once"?? Let's not overstate things, shall we?

(BTW, I'm flattered that you use your most elaborate English for me, but I prefer the word "terpsichorean", thank you.)


My English may not be as good as yours, but it's full of content at least. Yours is just surface and jokes. But you are still reasonably young - you can change.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sonic Youth » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:11 am

ITALIANO wrote: There's something deeply disturbing in all this, and no, I am not referring to the accused men for once.


"For once"?? Let's not overstate things, shall we?

(BTW, I'm flattered that you use your most elaborate English for me, but I prefer the word "terpsichorean", thank you.)
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby taki15 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:53 am

I think that Oliver Willis tweet says everything that has to be said.

https://twitter.com/owillis/status/936271159720579074

"Does Hillary Clinton (a woman) have the temperament to be president?" - asked by the men abusing and raping their coworkers and subordinates.

That was 2016.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby ITALIANO » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:24 am

Sonic Youth wrote:
taki15 wrote:Don't be so hard on Lauer. He was just helping a fellow sexual predator.


Wasn't sure who you meant at first, but now I think I do.

https://www.salon.com/2017/11/29/matt-l ... y-scandal/

I see a sliding scale forming. The Garrison Keillor accusation really does look like a big pile of nothing, and no, you can't compare Franken to Moore, but he's a creep and so is Barton (who I actually felt bad for at first). That's quite a way to cap off a legacy, Mr. Conyers. I'll wait until everything has come out about President Smallhands before evaluating him, and it will come out. Moore, Weinstein and Spacey may be the top of their echelons, but Matt Lauer... wow. I don't know if he's the worst of them all, but he's clearly the most evil.


The tricoteuses are back... I am so glad that I don't find any pleasure in reading about such stuff, in making lists of (possible) sexual predators, in amxiously looking for new ones every day, in mixing the guilty with the innocent (but then, sex is never innocent, right?). There's something deeply disturbing in all this, and no, I am not referring to the accused men for once.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sonic Youth » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:38 pm

Greg wrote:
Sonic Youth wrote:. . . but he's a creep and so is Barton (who I actually felt bad for at first). . .


I thought everything about Barton involved consenting adults.


Well, that is a difference, yes. It really should be no one's business. He has an appalling lack of judgement, though.
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