Decision 2016

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Sabin
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Re: Decision 2016

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OscarGuy wrote
Really, she adopted almost every single one of Bernie's positions into her own platform. You say she didn't reach out to millennials, but then reference Magilla's statement about older voters. They aren't the same thing. Youngsters are more likely to go online to look at things. Maybe she could have been more articulate about some things, but I remember very clearly from the town hall debate where she spoke directly to those asking questions and advised them what she stood for and what it would do to help.
I think it matters more than you think. And I was directing Magilla's point towards millennials because I honestly hadn't thought about that before he mentioned it, but the past day or so I've just been mulling around, running this election through my head, asking myself why she didn't articulate her policies better to millennials, the center she was courting, etc...

But then it hit me. During the Democratic Primaries, she articulated her policies just fine. The minute the nominations were sealed, the media turned the entire thing into cult of personality. I remember several occasions, the miserable Matt Lauer "debate" for example, where she would basically get cut off in the middle of a policy explanation to pivot back to the emails or whatever. I don't blame her campaign staff for thinking this was a good compromise, but in retrospect it didn't work. But it was a direct response to an election that the media setup. I have so much contempt for the networks, from their clown-car treatment of the GOP debates, allowing Donald Trump to coast without any serious policy ideas, to getting the polls for Hillary so damn wrong.
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Re: Decision 2016

Post by criddic3 »

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/11/13/do ... -interview

Apparently, Trump is signalling a slightly different agenda than many thought he was proposing as a candidate. Could be that the former version of Donald Trump is re-emerging.
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Re: Decision 2016

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There's a difference between not reaching out to millennials and not being appealing to millennials. Bernie Sanders didn't necessarily reach out to millennials. He just happened to have that appeal. (True, he did reach out to them during the last part of the campaign since he depended on them to stay in the race.) Hillary Clinton did not have the same appeal. That's no one's fault, it's just the way things shake out. But it wasn't for lack of trying. Quite the contrary, actually.
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Re: Decision 2016

Post by OscarGuy »

Really, she adopted almost every single one of Bernie's positions into her own platform. You say she didn't reach out to millennials, but then reference Magilla's statement about older voters. They aren't the same thing. Youngsters are more likely to go online to look at things. Maybe she could have been more articulate about some things, but I remember very clearly from the town hall debate where she spoke directly to those asking questions and advised them what she stood for and what it would do to help.

The problem is not that she didn't reach out to them, but that they seemed unwilling to even bother trying. They rejected early and refused to even acknowledge when Bernie specifically pointed out where they agreed on things. They turned their nose up at him as a traitor to their cause. He and Elizabeth Warren worked very hard on those voters and they ignored them, not because she didn't have policies that would help them, but because they were stubborn and didn't want to hear about them. I can't count how many times I saw people reference her positions and have Bernie supporters say: what about the Wall Street transcripts.

Hell, I saw someone reference the "public and private positions" thing. You know what. Her private positions were more liberal than her public ones at the time she wrote those speeches. Sometimes you DO need private positions versus public ones because sometimes the public is too ignorant to accept that those private positions might actually work out for them.
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Sabin
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Re: Decision 2016

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OscarGuy wrote
Maybe if they could get over their petty little egos, we wouldn't be stuck with Orange Hitler for 4 years. Like I said, there's plenty of blame to go around. I don't give a shit if you think she's the devil in a blue pantsuit. Normalizing the type of person Donald Trump IS is more detrimental than anything. A lot of those folk who said "burn the whole thing down" were never going to be harmed by Trump's rhetoric and proposed policies. They have been insulated and protected their whole lives and have never known true strife under a full Republican administration, especially one as vehement and vitriolic as this one.
There is a ton of blame to go around. I go on my Facebook and I see argument after argument, and maybe that means I'm lucky because I don't have a lot of Trump supporters in my life. I just don't. I've been railing against millennials ever since I saw that 19% of them voted. Yes, they deserve a ton of blame. That is embarrassing. But on the other hand, Hillary did not reach out to them. She didn't make her policies clear. Yes, we know what they are, but as Magilla brilliantly pointed out...
Big Magilla wrote
The biggest mistake the Clinton campaign and the DNC made was not speaking more directly to the older voters. The haters only made up about half of Trump's supporters or 12.5% of the electorate. The other half were the old white people - women as well as men. These people either don't have a computer or if they do only visit sites that are relevant to their everyday lives. Hillary's "go to my website to see all the wonderful things I'm going to do for you" did not resonate with them.
Saying "Go to my website" speaks to nobody. If Donald Trump said "Go to my website for my plans about the wall," he would've lost.

Her plan from the beginning was: court the center. Get the voters left behind by Donald Trump. The way she did that was pivot as establishment as possible and it backfired miserably. Yes, she had a strong platform but when did she speak about it? Her attitude towards the galvanized youth of millennials was "Wake up, I own your vote." Yeah, how did that work with Hispanics? Hillary Clinton was our only hope this election, but nobody owes her shit.

I can't wait to see who our next Secretary of State is who supported the Iraq War. This would be the fifth.
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Re: Decision 2016

Post by OscarGuy »

Sabin wrote:
OscarGuy wrote
There's plenty of blame to go around, not just to the DNC, but also Bernie's supporter.
Maybe if she didn't act like they were getting in the way of her coronation, they would've voted for her.
Maybe if they could get over their petty little egos, we wouldn't be stuck with Orange Hitler for 4 years. Like I said, there's plenty of blame to go around. I don't give a shit if you think she's the devil in a blue pantsuit. Normalizing the type of person Donald Trump IS is more detrimental than anything. A lot of those folk who said "burn the whole thing down" were never going to be harmed by Trump's rhetoric and proposed policies. They have been insulated and protected their whole lives and have never known true strife under a full Republican administration, especially one as vehement and vitriolic as this one.
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Re: Decision 2016

Post by Big Magilla »

Sonic Youth wrote:Magilla, I hope you're not overcompensating in response to when I scolded you a few months ago. :P
No. The Clinton campaign erred in not going after the white vote, but what do the non-haters who voted for Trump really think he is going to do for them? The old saying that "there's no fool like an old fool" is going to hit home sooner or later.
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Re: Decision 2016

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Big Magilla wrote:
The biggest mistake the Clinton campaign and the DNC made was not speaking more directly to the older voters. The haters only made up about half of Trump's supporters or 12.5% of the electorate. The other half were the old white people - women as well as men. These people either don't have a computer or if they do only visit sites that are relevant to their everyday lives. Hillary's "go to my website to see all the wonderful things I'm going to do for you" did not resonate with them.

I can tell you from personal experience it's like pulling teeth to get old people to look up things on the internet that are in their best interest. I am the editor of my 145-home senior community's monthly newsletter. I am also the administrator of the community website which offers the same information and more on a current basis yet only 20% ever visit the site even when I tease them in the Chronicle with pictures of community events which they all love with the notation that more pictures can be found on the website.
Magilla, I hope you're not overcompensating in response to when I scolded you a few months ago. :P
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Re: Decision 2016

Post by Sabin »

OscarGuy wrote
There's plenty of blame to go around, not just to the DNC, but also Bernie's supporter.
Maybe if she didn't act like they were getting in the way of her coronation, they would've voted for her.
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Re: Decision 2016

Post by Big Magilla »

Sabin wrote:Are you being sarcastic or saying "Yes, this is a good story."
Neither. I thought it was funny, sad, but funny. In my day "a good one" meant something that would tickle the funny bone.

Anyone the Democrats put up was going to be a "flawed" candidate. The haters would have destroyed Bernie even easier.

The progressives taking over the DNC may excite the millennials, but they alone will not take over the Congress in the next election. Howard Dean is right. They need to have a 50-state strategy.

The biggest blame belongs to the 48% of registered voters who didn't vote. Hillary and Trump both got 46-47% of those who did or roughly 25% of the electorate each.

The biggest mistake the Clinton campaign and the DNC made was not speaking more directly to the older voters. The haters only made up about half of Trump's supporters or 12.5% of the electorate. The other half were the old white people - women as well as men. These people either don't have a computer or if they do only visit sites that are relevant to their everyday lives. Hillary's "go to my website to see all the wonderful things I'm going to do for you" did not resonate with them.

I can tell you from personal experience it's like pulling teeth to get old people to look up things on the internet that are in their best interest. I am the editor of my 145-home senior community's monthly newsletter. I am also the administrator of the community website which offers the same information and more on a current basis yet only 20% ever visit the site even when I tease them in the Chronicle with pictures of community events which they all love with the notation that more pictures can be found on the website.
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Re: Decision 2016

Post by OscarGuy »

There's plenty of blame to go around, not just to the DNC, but also Bernie's supporter.
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Re: Decision 2016

Post by Sabin »

Are you being sarcastic or saying "Yes, this is a good story."
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Re: Decision 2016

Post by Big Magilla »

This is a good one.

DNC staffer to Donna Brazile:

"You and your friends will die of old age and I'm going to die from climate change. You and your friends let this happen, which is going to cut 40 years off my life expectancy."

http://www.newsmax.com/Politics/democra ... id/758300/
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Re: Decision 2016

Post by Sabin »

Greg wrote
Clearly the vitriol against this one specific person caused this debacle to take office...making people's choice somehow harder in his/her minds due to the dark cloud that seems to follow Hillary and the Clinton name. There are many options out there who are fresh, young, non-McGovern, Dole, Kerry, Romney types sent out for sacrifice...who just need to buckle down in open to going blue states where people will be hurt by a repeal in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Iowa, and Florida. Booker, Harris, Moulton, Castro, Gillibrand are all exciting up and comers and to a lesser extent Gabbard or maybe Cuomo who would all be able to get those states back and make it DAMN hard to get re-elected for a toxic Trump. I really like Tim Kaine too actually but would be nervous he's a poison pill due to past name recognition and association.
If the Democrats pick Tim Kaine, they deserve what they get.

The Monday Night Quarterback story that is trending the most is whether or not Bernie Sanders could've won. As somebody who voted for Sanders, I have some mixed thoughts on that, but the establishment DNC is a toxic brand right now. There's a Huffington Post article making the rounds right now about a furious staffer exploding at Donna Brazile. Who knows what it will be like in four years, but choosing somebody like Cory Booker or Kristen Gilibrand is basically going to bat with a knockoff of what was voted out in the first place. Here's a thought: Alan Grayson. Sure, he's controversial and a bully, but so is Donald Trump and maybe that's what we need. He's a progressive who can bring out the youth vote and he's from a crucial state. Sure, he lost his Senate primary but maybe this year that was a blessing in disguise.
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Re: Decision 2016

Post by Bog »

Greg wrote:I think he only used this as an issue to get votes from people who would not have voted for him based on the things about which he really cares, reducing financial regulations, etc. How much he can get through Congress will be based on the level of popular opposition to what people discover he truly cares about.
In the vein of plans he spouted during the campaign cycle of which I think he wants to accomplish...and now has the means...repeal and replace and whatever blah blah Obamacare. My guess is the wall junk will fall away quickly...as Greg alluded, he's a lifelong New Yorker and can't possibly care that much about Hispanics living in the US but for the benefit of the Red meat in flyover states..if his sensibilities were so offended by he would live and make his fortune in such a state. Making Hillary a major part of his early days and Paul Ryan NOT will probably also go by the wayside. However, he does seem to have passion about ending (or if impossible to do...FUBARing) Obamacare...which harkens a little back to Obama's passion to enact it, while the GOP base was able to start a movement that changed roughly 60 house seats and 1 from a senate supermajority down to eking out a majority hold at 51 just a mere 8 months after enactment. There are people to be rallied on the left in this same way if Trump completes this feat...if rallying in 2020 purely due to complacency over the 2016 outcome doesn't already have you ensuring a vacation day on the first Tuesday in November 4 years from now...

Which brings me to my next point:
Sabin wrote: We can pray for a swift, first term but he'll get reelected. That's what we do.
Clearly the vitriol against this one specific person caused this debacle to take office...making people's choice somehow harder in his/her minds due to the dark cloud that seems to follow Hillary and the Clinton name. There are many options out there who are fresh, young, non-McGovern, Dole, Kerry, Romney types sent out for sacrifice...who just need to buckle down in open to going blue ststes where people will be hurt by a repeal in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Iowa, and Florida. Booker, Harris, Moulton, Castro, Gillibrand are all exciting up and comers and to a lesser extent Gabbard or maybe Cuomo who would all be able to get those states back and make it DAMN hard to get re-elected for a toxic Trump. I really like Tim Kaine too actually but would be nervous he's a poison pill due to past name recognition and association.
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