New Developments III

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Re: New Developments III

Postby Sabin » Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm

Okri wrote
1. I think I thought it was going to be Paul Ryan.

2. So... point proven. That said, I do think he's going to run again, if he's able.

1. People said it could be Paul Ryan up until March of 2016.
2. I think he could as well. I also think Candace Owens could.
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Re: New Developments III

Postby Okri » Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:45 pm

Sabin wrote:
Okri wrote
Trump is going to run for the nomination again, and he's absolutely going to get it. Someone posted that failed coups without consequences turn into practice runs.

If he runs, he absolutely gets the nomination. But we don't know that he's going to run again. Whenever anyone says they know for certain what is going to happen in four years, I would ask them if in Dec. 2012 they thought Marco Rubio or Chris Christie would be the GOP nominee in 2016? I personally don't know if he's going to be around for another few years. The man is terrible shape.

But this concerns me: Republicans came within 90,000 votes of controlling Washington.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... ashington/


1. I think I thought it was going to be Paul Ryan.

2. So... point proven. That said, I do think he's going to run again, if he's able.

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Re: New Developments III

Postby Sabin » Sun Feb 14, 2021 6:25 pm

Okri wrote
Trump is going to run for the nomination again, and he's absolutely going to get it. Someone posted that failed coups without consequences turn into practice runs.

If he runs, he absolutely gets the nomination. But we don't know that he's going to run again. Whenever anyone says they know for certain what is going to happen in four years, I would ask them if in Dec. 2012 they thought Marco Rubio or Chris Christie would be the GOP nominee in 2016? I personally don't know if he's going to be around for another few years. The man is terrible shape.

But this concerns me: Republicans came within 90,000 votes of controlling Washington.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... ashington/
"Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough." ~ FDR

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Re: New Developments III

Postby Sonic Youth » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:27 pm

I guess I’m inhabiting another planet. Do you all really believe people were hoping Democrats would call witnesses because they thought the outcome would change? Do you think people didn’t already know from the beginning that the votes weren’t there? If so, then the disconnect between the different factions of Democrats is far wider than I thought.
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Re: New Developments III

Postby criddic3 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:50 pm

I would have to side with those saying that witnesses would have had a very minimal affect on the outcome. Mitch McConnell's comments on the matter prove this without doubt. He says Trump is guilty but he acquitted him because he's no longer in office, a stupid argument that was sort of settled with the vote on whether the Senate had the authority to do so. McConnell voted "no" on that, so in one sense he was being consistent, yet on the other his logic makes no sense. This is where the party wants to be now. They had the best opportunity in the world to move beyond Trump, but didn't take it because they fear losing the Trump base in elections. Despite the fact that the party is losing members -- as well as voters-- because of Trump, this is their electoral strategy for the near future.
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Re: New Developments III

Postby Big Magilla » Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:15 pm

Okri, I'm with you 100% on the filibuster. Impeachment rules, however, are governed by the Constitution and can't be changed without amendment. Conviction would still require a two-thirds majority vote without a constitutional amendment.

The Constitution provides that an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures. None of the 27 amendments to the Constitution have been proposed by constitutional convention.

Three-quarters of the states in the United States are required to ratify an amendment to the United States Constitution. Therefore, out of 50 states, 38 states or more are required. All the rules, regulations, and the process followed when making any alteration to the constitution is highlighted in Article Five of the United States Constitution.

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Re: New Developments III

Postby taki15 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:25 pm

If someone like Shelby who is 86, retiring, and opposed vociferously Roy Moore's nomination, didn't vote to convict Trump then I don't see how any number of witnesses would have changed the minds of 10 more Republican senators.

On another note, I will be laughing my ass off when lil' Marco Rubio's obsequiousness is rewarded with a primary challenge by Ivanka.

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Re: New Developments III

Postby Okri » Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:45 am

Big Magilla, can those senate rules (the ones preventing Senate business during an impeachment trial) be changed unilaterally (aka, by the majority?). If they can, they they should have been.

Beyond that, it's not about changing the 43 minds that's at stake. It's about permanently yoking, in every aspect, the Republicans to Trump's actions. Cassidy got censured by the Louisiana GOP for his vote. The GOP at the state level is a full Q-anon party. It's about telling the people who are going to be marginalized and damaged by the GOP at the state level that the Democrats aren't taking their votes for granted and will use every power they've got to protect them and their citizens. Listening to Sinema about the filibuster, for example, is completely enraging. And the people who are working so hard to get Democrats in power are the ones that will be first in the firing line against any GOP chicanery. Do the Democrats care that they are up against a fully counter-majoritarian, anti-democratic party? Or do they care more about keeping the senate rules in place.

Trump is going to run for the nomination again, and he's absolutely going to get it. Someone posted that failed coups without consequences turn into practice runs.

I'm more on Sabin's side on this one. I'm not American so the affect it has on me is different, admittedly, but the fact is the world's best hope to get the USA on a more hopeful path is with the Democrats. That's bleak.

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Re: New Developments III

Postby Big Magilla » Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:52 am

MSNBC last night, and already again this morning with some new fill-in anchor with what sounds like an Australian accent, has been castigating the Democrats for not calling witnesses because they wanted to go home for Valentine's Day. It reminds me of the 2016 Presidential race when every piece of reporting about something stupid Trump said or did had to be countered with something equally stupid Hilary said or did and since they had nothing else, would always be about her damn e-mails. Is the failure to call witnesses the new faux scandal that will be hurled at the Dems at least until the 2022 midterms?

Trump's defense team had already begun to turn yesterday morning into a bigger circus yet by threatening to call 100 witnesses and forcing the Dems into calling as many as well. That would have required one roll call per witness to combat if they actually did that. Depositions prior to appearances would have put further delays into it. The kicker is that the Constitution says once an impeachment trial is under way, no other Senate business can take place. That can be overridden by agreement of both leaders, giving McConnell the perfect excuse to keep anything else from happening in the Senate until the vote sometime in May or whenever that got around to it.

As Raskin said in his news conference, they could have called 500 witnesses and the result would have been the same with McConnell and others talking out of both sides of their mouths. It would not have turned one public opinion, either. Anyone still defending Orange Hitler is in it for the long haul.

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Re: New Developments III

Postby OscarGuy » Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:59 pm

FYI: from what I've read, Trump is NOT getting security briefings. Biden doesn't need his advice on shit, so the customary allowance of former presidents to have security briefings so they can proffer advice when asked is moot with Trump.
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Re: New Developments III

Postby Sabin » Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:06 pm

Sonic Youth wrote
Maybe less contemptuousness for those on the same side as you?

Whenever I have vocalized my skepticism about impeachment in the past, I've been met with contemptuousness or at the very least absolute conviction as recently as the past month. Which is fine. Nothing that I have said or that has been said to me has been remotely beyond the pale. But today, I am a vindicated cynic. I really wish I wasn't because if you'll look at my comments over the last two months, you'll see I absolutely got on this train and thought there was a chance it might happen. My comment was made because it's worth repeating, and I'm not excusing myself from those who need to hear.
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Re: New Developments III

Postby Sonic Youth » Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:22 pm

Sabin wrote:
Sonic Youth wrote
You sound esctatic he was acquitted, just so you could type this once again. Glad you weren't disappointed.

I'm certainly not ecstatic considering he's a mad man who as of now continues to get security briefings. God knows what he's going to do with them.

Sonic, how am I supposed to feel?


Maybe less contemptuousness for those on the same side as you?
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Re: New Developments III

Postby Big Magilla » Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:59 pm

There are good and bad people in every state, just as there are good and bad people everywhere, but the 57 Senators who found Trump guilty represent 76% of the country's electorate so most of us seem to be picking the right people to represent us.

The problem is the way the Senate is constructed with small minds in small states electing jackasses who are given the same stature as the wise men and women they share space with.

If Senators were apportioned the same percentage of voting power as the percentage of people they represent, things would have a different outcome, much along the lines of the House.

That will never happen. It's impossible, so we must do the next best thing - try to wise up the idiots who keep voting for these jackasses. That is only next to impossible.

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Re: New Developments III

Postby Sabin » Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:06 pm

Sonic Youth wrote
You sound esctatic he was acquitted, just so you could type this once again. Glad you weren't disappointed.

I'm certainly not ecstatic considering he's a mad man who as of now continues to get security briefings. God knows what he's going to do with them.

Sonic, how am I supposed to feel? We've done this twice now. Both times I've asked the question "Which Republicans are going to turn on him?" And both times the response I've gotten has been defiantly Charlie Brown vs. The Football. And it's been idealistic, wishful, and hopeful in a way that I never hear about things like healthcare. I do not respect a leadership that tells us that we have no choice but to do something with clearly no expectation of victory. If our leadership has been in the minority for so long that they do not know how to wield power then it should not be surprising that an astonishing number of Americans cannot be galvanized to vote for them. But at least we got some attacks ads for next November.
"Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough." ~ FDR

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Re: New Developments III

Postby Okri » Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:40 pm

And now the Senate takes a week off.


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