Sicko

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Post by criddic3 »

cam wrote:
criddic3 wrote:
jack wrote:
It has nothing to do with socialism or capitalism. When it comes to healtcare, but its very definition there should be no argument. Anyone, no matter income, race, nationality should be entilted to a free healthcare system. You simply can't put a price on someone's health...

Yeah, it sounds great, but it doesn't work. Nearly every country who has such a program also has huge economic problems. The fact that those countries house many fewer people (an understatement) is enough that anyone suggesting Universal Heathcare has to come up with a plausible way to pay for it without subjecting citizens to massive tax increases.

The other problem with the idea is the fact that free healthcare will surely decrease the quality and there will be huge waiting lists, lines and an overall collapse in the system. There will be no competition to drive the quality up and people will suffer. The combination of lesser quality, massive waiting lists and a stagnant economy should cause people to think long and hard before concluding that this is really what we want.

criddic:Your recent latest ill-informed remark that "nearly every country..etc."
Canada has a surplus and the US has a deficit that they will never recover from. Canada has universal health care, and it is good. So don't see the connection. Again: READ SOMETHING.
Learn some new ideas, then you might be an interesting person to debate.

Correction, the deficit has been cut in half much earlier than promised by President Bush. Even Newsday had a small mention of it last year that it was on its way down. Democrats have been downplaying the importance of the deficit ever since. Thank you for playing, though.
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Post by Greg »

criddic3 wrote:No, but he does call his movies "documentaries," which implies a more factual and less emotional approach to his subjects.
As if facts can't be presented emotionally.
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Post by 99-1100896887 »

criddic3 wrote:
jack wrote:
criddic3 wrote:This is more relevant, then:

Moore in Cuba



This seems to have as much to do with Moore and his film, as it does with the subject he chose. But perhaps my interpretive skills are just lacking. None of Mr. Moore's films are directly about his subjects. They are just as much about him and his ego. Of course our Healthcare system is a worthwhile topic to debate, though I think it would come down to socialism versus capitalism or some similar argument.

It has nothing to do with socialism or capitalism. When it comes to healtcare, but its very definition there should be no argument. Anyone, no matter income, race, nationality should be entilted to a free healthcare system. You simply can't put a price on someone's health...

Yeah, it sounds great, but it doesn't work. Nearly every country who has such a program also has huge economic problems. The fact that those countries house many fewer people (an understatement) is enough that anyone suggesting Universal Heathcare has to come up with a plausible way to pay for it without subjecting citizens to massive tax increases.

The other problem with the idea is the fact that free healthcare will surely decrease the quality and there will be huge waiting lists, lines and an overall collapse in the system. There will be no competition to drive the quality up and people will suffer. The combination of lesser quality, massive waiting lists and a stagnant economy should cause people to think long and hard before concluding that this is really what we want.
criddic:Your recent latest ill-informed remark that "nearly every country..etc."
Canada has a surplus and the US has a deficit that they will never recover from. Canada has universal health care, and it is good. So don't see the connection. Again: READ SOMETHING.
Learn some new ideas, then you might be an interesting person to debate.
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Post by criddic3 »

kaytodd wrote:My impression is that Michael Moore does not pretend that what he does is unbiased journalism. He has a point of view and his films are designed to promote that point of view. Didn't he respond to accusations of errors and omissions in "9/11" by saying something like "this is not a work of journalism"? I am sure he takes exception when anyone suggests he is putting out false information in his films. But I never believed he is claiming his films are unbiased journalism.

One episode did stick with me. Moore was the guest on Sunday Morning Shootout on the AMC cable channel a few years ago. Moore and the hosts Peter Guber and Peter Bart were discussing Moore's speech the night he won his Oscar. Moore suggested his decision to make his speech denouncing Bush was spur of the moment, he wondered if he should do it, he didn't know what he was going to say until he got to the stage, etc.

We all remember the dramatic moment when the other Documentary Feature nominees walked up to the stage with Moore and stood behind him while he made his rant. I would say that suggests pre-planning. Also, I understand his rant was almost a word-for-word repeat of a rant he gave at the Independent Spirit Awards the night before. Guber and Bart were certainly aware of the discrepancies but they politely said nothing.
No, but he does call his movies "documentaries," which implies a more factual and less emotional approach to his subjects.

In the end, he is looking for an emotional response to the issues he has interests in, and that hurts his message because he is so willing to bend the truth (I'm being kind here) to further that agenda.
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Post by kaytodd »

My impression is that Michael Moore does not pretend that what he does is unbiased journalism. He has a point of view and his films are designed to promote that point of view. Didn't he respond to accusations of errors and omissions in "9/11" by saying something like "this is not a work of journalism"? I am sure he takes exception when anyone suggests he is putting out false information in his films. But I never believed he is claiming his films are unbiased journalism.

One episode did stick with me. Moore was the guest on Sunday Morning Shootout on the AMC cable channel a few years ago. Moore and the hosts Peter Guber and Peter Bart were discussing Moore's speech the night he won his Oscar. Moore suggested his decision to make his speech denouncing Bush was spur of the moment, he wondered if he should do it, he didn't know what he was going to say until he got to the stage, etc.

We all remember the dramatic moment when the other Documentary Feature nominees walked up to the stage with Moore and stood behind him while he made his rant. I would say that suggests pre-planning. Also, I understand his rant was almost a word-for-word repeat of a rant he gave at the Independent Spirit Awards the night before. Guber and Bart were certainly aware of the discrepancies but they politely said nothing.
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Post by Precious Doll »

I thought I would place Varietys review from March on a film about Michael Moore himself.

Manufacturing Dissent
(Documentary -- Canada)
By JOE LEYDON

A Persistence of Vision Prods. production in association with Chum and Canal D, with the participation of the Canadian Television Fund. Produced, directed, written by Debbie Melnyk, Rick Caine.

An intelligent, provocative and, arguably, even necessary examination of the phenomenon of Michael Moore -- the man, his movies and his methods -- "Manufacturing Dissent" is not an assault by right-wing ideologues but a dissection by two self-described "progressive liberals," and has all the more impact for it. Canadian documentarians Debbie Melnyk and Rick Caine draw heavily upon interviews with Moore’s critics, acquaintances, former colleagues and longtime observers to fashion an even-handed but largely unflattering warts-and-all portrait of a firebrand filmmaker who’s described here even by a purported friend as "a bit megalomaniacal at times, with a paranoid tinge." Pic could glean ample exposure through global fest and tube venues.
To a large degree, "Manufacturing Dissent" covers well-trod ground as it catalogs charges and critiques that have dogged Moore for decades. Even before he broke through with "Roger & Me" (1989), the first of his high-grossing (and highly influential) first-person documentaries, he started burning bridges and making enemies in the aftermath of his firing from Mother Jones magazine. (He claims he was removed as editor for political reasons; testimony here indicates that, no, he simply wasn’t a very good editor.) Later, as "Roger & Me" evolved into a genuine phenomenon, Moore -- mindful of his image as a folksy, working-class maverick flying solo -- allegedly claimed more credit than he was due (and, worse, gave no credit to deserving collaborators).

Interviewees offer various and sundry anecdotes meant to illustrate Moore’s worst sins of commission and omission: his penchant for embellishing (or manufacturing) autobiographical details; his willingness to underscore points through misleading cross-cutting and dubious alterations of chronology; his eagerness to enjoy the sort of lifestyle savored by the very corporate bigwigs he chronically skewers.

During some of these interviews, it’s difficult not to detect the sound of axes grinding, or the stench of long-simmering resentments. And a few talking heads seem downright petty. Still, there is a cumulative power and undeniable substance to the sheer volume of so much damning testimony.

And even when the testimony isn’t damning -- when it’s actually admiring, grudgingly or otherwise -- "Manufacturing Dissent" questions whether Moore might be hurting his avowed causes by inflating his own superstardom. On the flip side, more than one interviewee notes that Moore attained such celebrity in the first place because of the lack of other aggressively outspoken firebrands on the left. Fellow documentarian Errol Morris pointedly notes that Moore’s "Fahrenheit 9/11" was "preaching to the choir" in a church where "people could pray together and attack the infidel Bush together."

Moore might have helped himself -- and offered valid counterarguments -- had he agreed to one of Melnyk’s many requests for a one-on-one interview. Instead, as "Manufacturing Dissent" never tires of emphasizing, Moore repeatedly declined to sit still for an on-camera chat, usually claiming he was too busy with his "Slacker Uprising Tour," which encouraged the youth vote against George Bush in the 2004 campaign. (Obviously, Melnyk and Caine borrowed a few pages from Moore’s own "Roger & Me.")

The filmmakers undercut their case against Moore’s m.o. with their own minor fudging of chronological details. (Note how Moore appears to intro a Toronto preview of "Fahrenheit 9/11" even before its world premiere at Cannes.) But Moore’s handlers inadvertently allow them to reinforce their position as relentless seekers of truth: Melnyk and Caine are forcibly ejected during one public event spotlighting Moore and denied access to sound recording at another.

Oddly, "Manufacturing Dissent" spends comparatively little time parsing "Fahrenheit 9/11" for factual errors and/or misrepresentations. (Another Moore effort, "The Big One," is ignored almost entirely.) Rather, filmmakers devote their fullest energies to fact-checking "Bowling for Columbine" and "Roger & Me," neatly deflating the mythos of the latter by demonstrating that Moore actually did land an interview with elusive General Motors chief Roger Smith.

Did Moore serve a greater truth by consigning that interview to the cutting room floor? Or did he merely alter reality in order to make a more entertaining movie? Those are just a few of the questions that "Manufacturing Dissent" lobs toward the audience to open eyes, upend assumptions and spark debate. Pic ultimately comes off respectful of Moore’s idealism but critical of his methodology. But many viewers -- including many who heretofore have admired Moore -- may wind up far less generous in their revised appraisal of the filmmaker.

Tech values are on par for small-budget doc.

Camera (DV, color), Caine; editors, Bill Towgood, Robert Ruzic; music, Michael White; sound, Melnyk. Reviewed at SXSW Film Festival (Spotlight Premieres), March 10, 2007. Running time: 96 MIN.
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Post by criddic3 »

SICKO
U.S. Release Date: June 22, 2007
Distributor: Lionsgate
Director: Michael Moore
Running Time: 2 hours and 3 minutes
MPAA Rating: PG-13 (brief strong language)

------------------------------------------------------------

Medical Profession Distorted in Emotionalist Diatribe
by Scott Holleran

The Bill O'Reilly of pseudo-documentaries, self-promotional blowhard Michael Moore, presents Sicko, a distortion of reality from start to finish that purports to address a crucial issue: health care.

Having declined to review Moore's smash, Fahrenheit 9/11, and having missed his anti-business Roger and Me and anti-gun Bowling for Columbine, this writer was prepared to laugh, or at least chuckle, at the mess that constitutes today's mongrel health care system in America (and I've covered health policy for newspapers and non-profits). But this hooey, billed as a comedy, is as funny as a heart attack.


Moore covers health care like Fox News covers religion and the war in Iraq—without providing essential facts. He starts with the claim that 18,000 people die each year from a lack of health insurance, an idiotic assertion. People die. They die of cancer, heart disease and other causes. Individuals have a right to choose not to buy insurance (an idea governors Mitt Romney, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Ed Rendell reject)—and that means they choose to live without securing a means of paying for catastrophic illness.

Taking personal responsibility is not among Moore's values. Neither is disclosing whether he met with communist dictator Fidel Castro or Cuba's Communist Party officials to obtain special treatment for those Americans he illegally brought to the island dictatorship for medical treatment, a low act of depravity, even for Moore, who tacks on a singularly offensive display of communist propaganda. How many enslaved Cubans died so that his pre-selected participants could get cheaper drugs and a new set of teeth? This is a country where kids are stripped of their milk ration at the age of six.

That the dishonest Cuba portion—morally repugnant to anyone who recognizes man's rights—provides Sicko's climax ought to tip the movie's theme that a society ruled by force is acceptable; the ends justify the means. That there is no right to speech, travel or association in Cuba, let alone the right to make—or see—a movie, is lost on Moore and his sick bunch.

Tracked by overbearing music, emotionalist pitches—a diseased couple with six kids is shocked they can't afford health care in their elder years yet we never learn about how they chose to spend their money and what treatment decisions they've made—and a moral premise that health care is a right, Sicko grates on and on, neither making an argument or an especially interesting or amusing point.

Key assertions are false. For example, when Moore blasts Health Maintenance Organizations (HMOs)—a term created by a leftist college professor, which Moore does not disclose—using the Nixon administration's HMO Act, he conceals that the bill's primary sponsor was a liberal Democrat: Sen. Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts. That's right: the leftist intellectuals railing against HMOs are the bastards who created them—by force, requiring that American businesses include HMOs in employee health coverage.

You'd never know that from Sicko, which also fails to mention that every world leader from King Hussein to Boris Yeltsin sought medical treatment in the world's most productive nation with the best quality health care: the United States of America.

Moore is on firmer ground when he points out that socialized medicine was expanded by America's current president, a devout Christian who agrees that health care is a right, though Moore doesn't describe it that way.

The fact—despite manipulative flashes of socialized medicine in Britain, Canada and France—is that, for all intents and purposes, America already has socialized medicine (that is the proper term for government intervention in the medical profession), and it's typically instituted by conservatives. Medicare—subsidized care for every American over age 65—is not capitalism. Moore ignores this self-evident truth and the possibility that government-controlled health care is impractical because it is immoral.

Moore is no more interested in exploring morality than are the conservatives who shoved Medicare drug subsidies down our throats (emptying our wallets), leaving Sicko holding up one of L.A.'s worst hospitals—the dreaded government-run King/Drew medical center—as a model, harming his subjects with invasive camera crews and praising the idea that, in Moore's words, "one guy changes everyone's mind." We've seen that type of political system, dictatorship, in countries like Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, where medicine was controlled by the state, everyone supposedly had health care—and no one had rights.
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Post by Mister Tee »

I meant to respond to criddic's "be afraid!" posting yesterday, but, really, what was the point? It wasn't an actual argument; it was just regurgitate from the Heritage Foundation web-site, ludicrously overstated (I half-expected "and dinosaurs will roam the countryside" by the end). Just one thing, criddic: could you offer some evidence that all the countries who have universal care have massive economic problems? Given that many of them have had it for decades, and have passed through many boom and bust periods since it was implemented, it's going to be a tough argument to make. (One stipulation: an editorial from NewsMax or The Weekly Standard will not constitute "proof")
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Post by Penelope »

Sonic Youth wrote:And no, he doesn't live in Canada. He lives in the state of New York. Perhaps you've heard of it, Criddic. You know, the one that's not a border state?
ROFLMAO!!!!
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Post by Sonic Youth »

criddic3 wrote:Yeah, it sounds great, but it doesn't work. Nearly every country who has such a program also has huge economic problems. The fact that those countries house many fewer people (an understatement) is enough that anyone suggesting Universal Heathcare has to come up with a plausible way to pay for it without subjecting citizens to massive tax increases.



Except, of course, that "socialized" health care in all these countries - including Canada, most European countries, why heavens to mergatroid even the U.K.! - receive MUCH HIGHER SATISFACTION RATINGS from their citizens. And by a lot, too. (And yes, I'm sure no one's health care system is perfect by any means, but you can't argue satisfaction ratings.)

And, regarding the issue of *gasp* raising taxes, the U.S. health care system as it stands IS FAR MORE EXPENSIVE than it is in Canada, Sweden, etc.

I assume you knew this, and just decided it wasn't worthy of mention. Nice way to differentiate yourself from the "biased" Michael Moore.

As for this laughable guff over no competition, it's clear you haven't even the least clue about this topic, other than the sloagans you steal from right-wing blogs. Criddic, are seriously that uninformed that you don't know how many pharmaceutical industries are NOT based in the U.S.? Or how many are U.S.-based, but are also globalist corporations? Hell, the Brits and the Swiss have several Big Pharma corporations competing against each other. They seem to be doing fine under their current system.

And as for the scare propaganda of "long waiting lines", last year my father needed a hip replacement. He had to be confined to a wheelchair for two months until his turn on the waiting list came up. And no, he doesn't live in Canada. He lives in the state of New York. Perhaps you've heard of it, Criddic. You know, the one that's not a border state?
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Post by criddic3 »

jack wrote:
criddic3 wrote:This is more relevant, then:

Moore in Cuba

This time round, Moore simply chooses an easier target - an injustice that anyone who believes in human solidarity, whatever their political affiliation, is going to have to work hard to disagree with. [Allow me to introduce Criddic to you.]


This seems to have as much to do with Moore and his film, as it does with the subject he chose. But perhaps my interpretive skills are just lacking. None of Mr. Moore's films are directly about his subjects. They are just as much about him and his ego. Of course our Healthcare system is a worthwhile topic to debate, though I think it would come down to socialism versus capitalism or some similar argument.

It has nothing to do with socialism or capitalism. When it comes to healtcare, but its very definition there should be no argument. Anyone, no matter income, race, nationality should be entilted to a free healthcare system. You simply can't put a price on someone's health...
Yeah, it sounds great, but it doesn't work. Nearly every country who has such a program also has huge economic problems. The fact that those countries house many fewer people (an understatement) is enough that anyone suggesting Universal Heathcare has to come up with a plausible way to pay for it without subjecting citizens to massive tax increases.

The other problem with the idea is the fact that free healthcare will surely decrease the quality and there will be huge waiting lists, lines and an overall collapse in the system. There will be no competition to drive the quality up and people will suffer. The combination of lesser quality, massive waiting lists and a stagnant economy should cause people to think long and hard before concluding that this is really what we want.
"Because here’s the thing about life: There’s no accounting for what fate will deal you. Some days when you need a hand. There are other days when we’re called to lend a hand." -- President Joe Biden, 01/20/2021
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Post by Sonic Youth »

'Sicko' Socko at the Box Office
Monday , June 25, 2007

By Roger Friedman



Michael Moore's latest film, "Sicko," was a smash hit over the weekend. The documentary about the health care industry was sold out at all its "sneak" screenings in 43 locations around the country including Cleveland, Boston, Atlanta, and Detroit.

In New York, at the AMC Lincoln Square, where "Sicko" began an exclusive run on Friday, Moore's funny and quite sad look at how Americans might benefit from universal health care sold out its entire run. The total box office at the theater was over $70,000 — possibly a record for an exclusive showing.

This was the only really good news for the box office weekend, as both the incredibly expensive comedy "Evan Almighty" and the highly touted "A Mighty Heart" were disappointments. The latter, however, should have a decent run and return during awards season.

But as far as igniting the passions of audiences, "Sicko" had the field to itself. On Friday night, Moore and one of his producers attended the 7:45 p.m. Lincoln Square screening, unobtrusively and out of sight of the audience. When the show ended, a standing ovation ensued, with cheering that culminated in Moore ultimately revealing he was there. The situation got so out of hand that the fire marshall came in to clear the theater.

Moore told me on Saturday night what happened next:

"We tried to leave the theater and people just followed us outside onto the street. All the way down and out of the theater they were applauding. Out on the street we had our own Q&A session," he said.

He was wide-eyed as he told me this over dinner at Prime 101 in East Hampton where swells like Candice Bergen and Roy Scheider, designer Tommy Hilfiger, as well as famed "In America" director Jim Sheridan were among the A-list guests who had come to applaud him.

Many of the guests headed over from another swell get together, at the home of attorney Gerald Lefcourt, who entertained NBC's Jeff Zucker, Conan O'Brian producer Jeff Ross, and perennial favorite Kelsey Grammer with wife Camille.

The Friday night situation at Lincoln Square, by the way, turned into such a mess that the 11 p.m. show was delayed. When Moore went into that theater — now he was obviously there — there was more cheering as he walked down the center aisle at the end and fans chanted "Speech!"

Around the country, audiences were said to be similarly moved by the "Sicko" screenings.

Meanwhile, back in the Hamptons, where Moore literally came and went in one night, the director ran into celebrated young actress LeeLee Sobieski. She told Moore something he didn't know:

"You discovered me," she said. "It was a promo commercial for your movie 'Canadian Bacon.' You cast me in it. I must have been around 11."

When Sobieski described the 13-year-old episode, Moore did recall it. "Canadian Bacon" was his failed attempt at a fiction film, although he says he may try one again after one more documentary.

What will that be? "If you look at the other films in order, you can see a theme and pattern," he said, "but much more I can't tell you yet."

In fact, after he launches "Sicko" this week in Denver, Moore has another project that he'll announce on Friday. It has to do with wellness, health and his own weight loss, which he's working on.

"You have to do three things to lose weight," he offered. "Take a walk every day" and "be happy" are two of them, he said. Designer Donna Karan, who eats only raw, organic, and healthy foods — and looks terrific — agreed. She's busy getting hospitals to change their menus. Moore told her that one scene which was cut from "Sicko" showed hospitals serving McDonald's.

"We have this great long tracking shot," he said, "of the patients, all sick, ending in the McDonald's that was right there. It will be on the DVD."

Meantime, this week Moore takes "Sicko" to Denver, where he still maintains friendships with families from Littleton, Colorado school shooting and his film, "Bowling for Columbine."

But it's the initial response to "Sicko" that's on Moore's mind now. He'll appear on Jay Leno's talk show this week, and hopes to be on FOX News with either or both Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity before the next week is up. The next decision he has to make, with Harvey Weinstein, is how many theaters to put "Sicko" in on Friday.

"We don't want a wide release. We want it to be gradual." But from the looks of this weekend's results, "Sicko" should begin exclusive runs this coming weekend in at least the 43 cities in which it debuted.
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Post by jack »

criddic3 wrote:This is more relevant, then:

Moore in Cuba

This time round, Moore simply chooses an easier target - an injustice that anyone who believes in human solidarity, whatever their political affiliation, is going to have to work hard to disagree with. [Allow me to introduce Criddic to you.]


This seems to have as much to do with Moore and his film, as it does with the subject he chose. But perhaps my interpretive skills are just lacking. None of Mr. Moore's films are directly about his subjects. They are just as much about him and his ego. Of course our Healthcare system is a worthwhile topic to debate, though I think it would come down to socialism versus capitalism or some similar argument.
It has nothing to do with socialism or capitalism. When it comes to healtcare, but its very definition there should be no argument. Anyone, no matter income, race, nationality should be entilted to a free healthcare system. You simply can't put a price on someone's health...
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Post by criddic3 »

This is more relevant, then:

Moore in Cuba

This time round, Moore simply chooses an easier target - an injustice that anyone who believes in human solidarity, whatever their political affiliation, is going to have to work hard to disagree with. [Allow me to introduce Criddic to you.]


This seems to have as much to do with Moore and his film, as it does with the subject he chose. But perhaps my interpretive skills are just lacking. None of Mr. Moore's films are directly about his subjects. They are just as much about him and his ego. Of course our Healthcare system is a worthwhile topic to debate, though I think it would come down to socialism versus capitalism or some similar argument.
"Because here’s the thing about life: There’s no accounting for what fate will deal you. Some days when you need a hand. There are other days when we’re called to lend a hand." -- President Joe Biden, 01/20/2021
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Post by Sonic Youth »

criddic3 wrote:
[Allow me to introduce Criddic to you.]


As someone who gave a favorable rating to Bowling for Columbine, despite its obvious flaws and Moore's tendency to make himself out a hero, I'll give Sicko a chance. However, his tactics still turn me off and his decision to use Cuba as counterpoint to U.S. medical system is worrisome to me.
The context from which you quoted me had nothing to do with Moore's film, or the tactics he uses. It had to do with the overall subject of the American health care system.

But, um... thanks for sharing?
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