Notes on a Scandal
Besides, having civil unions for one group of people, and marriage for another is simply another form of "separate but equal," which, as we know, is NOT equal. I am a patriotic, tax-paying citizen of this country, and I expect and demand to be treated as such.
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FilmFan720
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Why can't the gay population reach for the stars, though? Is it so much to ask that they be considered husband and wife? Is it so much not to discriminate in this country, and give them the legal right that every other person in this country has? Is it fair to say that they could get married if they just changed themselves to fit into the "norms of society"? Sorry, Criddic, but I don't buy this in the least. Yes, civil unions are probably going to be the first step to move forward, but don't give up on gay marriage completely. That is merely selling out.criddic3 wrote:It's time to be progressive in the real sense of the word and take a step forward, not backward. Every time gays rally for gay marriage it alienates the public. Go for civil unions and see a change in the ability to live more freely.
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FilmFan720
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Thanks for bringing up DaVinci Code and Matrix...I had forgotten about those examples, and they are perfect for our conversation. I see what you are bringing up about gay villians in films like Diamonds are Forever vs. Notes on a Scandal. Again, I haven't seen the film so I don't know whether I agree or disagree...I will leave that to other posters who have seen the film. And it is so nice to have a little debate here where we both understand and respect the other's opinion. I see where you were coming from on this, and am now more interested than before to see the film.
"Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good."
- Minor Myers, Jr.
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What has happened to this thread? Dench's Barbara Covett is no more anti-gay than any other film character out there this season. She's the cinematic child of Alex Forrest and Mrs. Danvers with a hint of Martha Dobie thrown in. Her unspoken lesbianism is not what makes her a difficult character; it's her secluded obsessive tendencies directed toward her female victims that make her a conflicted portrait. The fact that she's gay seems to take a backseat to the more prominent vindictive/obsessive qualities she exhibits in inserting herself into other people's lives. And I think it's worth pointing out that as much as she deviates from any sort of traditional feminist construct of what it means to be a woman of a certain age, she has a decidedly strong sense of who she is and where to she fits in the world. Sheba Hart, on the other hand, is presented as the shape-shifter, easily manipulated and constantly trying to reinvent herself into what will bring her this illusive and indefinable happiness she seeks (grad student, professor's lover, wife and mother, adulterer). Dench's is a brilliant portrayal and I think projecting a homophobic slant onto a critique of her character really does it a great disservice.
Edited By flipp525 on 1168205983
Edited By flipp525 on 1168205983
"The mantle of spinsterhood was definitely in her shoulders. She was twenty five and looked it."
-Gone With the Wind by Margaret Mitchell
-Gone With the Wind by Margaret Mitchell
rolotomasi99:
They do? Which ones? Sure, you have laws that say marraige is between a man and a woman, officially sanctioned by even the Democrat leader Bill Clinton. But you are not specifically prevented from forming relationships, living together or raising a child. And there is no basis for saying gays are prevented from working or living. Where do those laws exist?
I am, as you know, a gay conservative and have been wriiten off as such. But while I would like to be able to be legally recognized with a partner, I do not support the over-zealous hijacking of the word marraige. Sorry, but that's what it is. If gays were serious about being legally recognized by the state or federal governments, don't put all your eggs in one basket. I'm fine with Civil Unions. It's only a word. Why do I need it to be called marraige? It's the same thing. Look, gays are never going to seen as equal by many people. I know that doesn't mean you shouldn't have the same rights, but by trying to have exactly what str8 people have, you alienate those who support gay rights. And by doing so, gays will never have what they really want. If we didn't push so hard, most of country would be with us. Civil unions are far more palatable to the mass public than the words "gay marriage." We could have an official lawful ceremony for unions, live and work together and adopt children. But all of this falls apart because of the need to have the title "marraige." If Guiliani becomes President civil unions will be in the cards, if we want it, but not gay marraige. Even Hilary Clinton won't give that to us. Her husband supported "one man, one woman."
It's time to be progressive in the real sense of the word and take a step forward, not backward. Every time gays rally for gay marriage it alienates the public. Go for civil unions and see a change in the ability to live more freely.
laws specifically prevent gay people from working, living, marrying, having children
They do? Which ones? Sure, you have laws that say marraige is between a man and a woman, officially sanctioned by even the Democrat leader Bill Clinton. But you are not specifically prevented from forming relationships, living together or raising a child. And there is no basis for saying gays are prevented from working or living. Where do those laws exist?
I am, as you know, a gay conservative and have been wriiten off as such. But while I would like to be able to be legally recognized with a partner, I do not support the over-zealous hijacking of the word marraige. Sorry, but that's what it is. If gays were serious about being legally recognized by the state or federal governments, don't put all your eggs in one basket. I'm fine with Civil Unions. It's only a word. Why do I need it to be called marraige? It's the same thing. Look, gays are never going to seen as equal by many people. I know that doesn't mean you shouldn't have the same rights, but by trying to have exactly what str8 people have, you alienate those who support gay rights. And by doing so, gays will never have what they really want. If we didn't push so hard, most of country would be with us. Civil unions are far more palatable to the mass public than the words "gay marriage." We could have an official lawful ceremony for unions, live and work together and adopt children. But all of this falls apart because of the need to have the title "marraige." If Guiliani becomes President civil unions will be in the cards, if we want it, but not gay marraige. Even Hilary Clinton won't give that to us. Her husband supported "one man, one woman."
It's time to be progressive in the real sense of the word and take a step forward, not backward. Every time gays rally for gay marriage it alienates the public. Go for civil unions and see a change in the ability to live more freely.
"Because here’s the thing about life: There’s no accounting for what fate will deal you. Some days when you need a hand. There are other days when we’re called to lend a hand." -- President Joe Biden, 01/20/2021
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rolotomasi99
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you are obviously a very progressive person, but i do think that there are people out there that believe what they see in the movies. luckily NOTES ON A SCANDAL is an art house movie, so the type of people seeing it are more like you and think for themselves.FilmFan720 wrote:I have seen The Celluloid Closet, several times, and agree that it is a phenomenal documentary.
I also like to think (and this may be the ignorant straight guy coming out here) that we have moved beyond much of the films in that film, which ends in the early 1990s.
I completely understand your Dreamgirls statement, but is United 93 racist because the Middle Eastern characters are all bad guys?
Is The Fugitive discriminatory because the bad guy is disabled, and only has one arm?
I like to think that we live in a time where we can look beyond the physical and sexual quailities of a character, and not stereotype them into groups based on one film.
UNITED 93 is not a good comparison since that was a real event; however, THE FUGITIVE is funny to bring up. there were some people that did not like THE DA VINCI CODE or THE MATRIX RELOADED because they objected to the villains being albinos. part of me laughs at that, but part of me understands it.
the difference is that while there may be social discrimination agains albinos, there are no laws (as far as i know) against albino people in this country. when state and federal government laws specifically prevent gay people from working, living, marrying, having children, you do look at films more sensitively than someone that does not have to worry about this type of discrimination.
when "time" magazine lets james dobson write an article about gays being moral degenerates that should not be allowed to have children, or a gay person is fired from their job because their employer thinks all gay people are sexual predators, it makes a movie like NOTES ON A SCANDAL salt in the wound.
gay villains like the ones in DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER are fine since it just happens to be bad people that are gay; but NOTES ON A SCANDAL takes a stereotype (the sexual predatory lesbian) that many people in this country still actually believe and turns it into a two hour melodrama. it just irked me. someday maybe we can have movies like this, but only after no one associates the actions of one character with how real people actually are.
all i wish was that there had been another character, a minor gay character that could have offered a positive gay presence. that is what i am saying.
"When it comes to the subject of torture, I trust a woman who was married to James Cameron for three years."
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FilmFan720
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I have seen The Celluloid Closet, several times, and agree that it is a phenomenal documentary. I think it also gives a fascinating insight into homosexuality in film. I also like to think (and this may be the ignorant straight guy coming out here) that we have moved beyond much of the films in that film, which ends in the early 1990s. I am not going to chime in on Notes on a Scandal, because I have not seen it.
I completely understand your Dreamgirls statement, but is United 93 racist because the Middle Eastern characters are all bad guys? Is The Fugitive discriminatory because the bad guy is disabled, and only has one arm? I don't think anyone left that film hating all disabled people. I like to think that we live in a time where we can look beyond the physical and sexual quailities of a character, and not stereotype them into groups based on one film.
I completely understand your Dreamgirls statement, but is United 93 racist because the Middle Eastern characters are all bad guys? Is The Fugitive discriminatory because the bad guy is disabled, and only has one arm? I don't think anyone left that film hating all disabled people. I like to think that we live in a time where we can look beyond the physical and sexual quailities of a character, and not stereotype them into groups based on one film.
"Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good."
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rolotomasi99
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if film after film coming out of hollywood has hispanics as drug dealers, asians as convenience store owners, and africans as rapist/murderers, then yes there is a theme of racism in those films and in hollywood in general. that is why liberal hollywood jumped at the chance to reward a film like CRASH, to alleviate their consciences about how minority characters are portrayed in hollywood films.
in DREAMGIRLS, it is acceptable that jamie foxx's character is an asshole because every other character in the film is black as well (the good with the bad). the same with BOYZ N THE HOOD or DO THE RIGHT THING. not all the black characters are saints in those movies, but the movie has enough depth to show the multitude of different types of people within any group.
filmfan720, i do not know your ethnicity, but you already stated you are a straight male. if you are white, then you clearly have no trouble finding characters that reflect who you are. you may not be a pirate or a secret agent, but it is much easier for you to see yourself on screen when all the lead characters are straight white males. i may not be a cowboy, but it is still nice to see someone that is somewhat like me in the movies i see.
there is an amazing documentary called THE CELLULOID CLOSET that i recommend you seeing. it is a great movie no matter what your identity or interests are, but it is also very educational about how gay characters have been treated in the one hundred years of cinema.
i could be wrong, but i am pretty sure oscarguy's "touchy dykes" comment was directed at the reviewer from afterellen.com that was commenting on judi dench's character (not the character itself).
in DREAMGIRLS, it is acceptable that jamie foxx's character is an asshole because every other character in the film is black as well (the good with the bad). the same with BOYZ N THE HOOD or DO THE RIGHT THING. not all the black characters are saints in those movies, but the movie has enough depth to show the multitude of different types of people within any group.
filmfan720, i do not know your ethnicity, but you already stated you are a straight male. if you are white, then you clearly have no trouble finding characters that reflect who you are. you may not be a pirate or a secret agent, but it is much easier for you to see yourself on screen when all the lead characters are straight white males. i may not be a cowboy, but it is still nice to see someone that is somewhat like me in the movies i see.
there is an amazing documentary called THE CELLULOID CLOSET that i recommend you seeing. it is a great movie no matter what your identity or interests are, but it is also very educational about how gay characters have been treated in the one hundred years of cinema.
i could be wrong, but i am pretty sure oscarguy's "touchy dykes" comment was directed at the reviewer from afterellen.com that was commenting on judi dench's character (not the character itself).
"When it comes to the subject of torture, I trust a woman who was married to James Cameron for three years."
-- Amy Poehler in praise of Zero Dark Thirty director Kathryn Bigelow
-- Amy Poehler in praise of Zero Dark Thirty director Kathryn Bigelow
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FilmFan720
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So, is any movie that has an African-American, or a Middle Eastern, or Asian, villian automatically racist? I haven't seen Notes on a Scandal, so I can't comment on its position, but it seems to me like just because the villian is gay, doesn't mean it is homophobic. What I know of Richard Eyre, Patrick Marber, Dench, Blanchett and Bill Nighy, I don't think any of them would make an anti-gay film. This seems to me to be the same complaint that has been hurdled at films like Silence of the Lambs, where gay people complain because the only gay characters in the films are the bad guys. I have seen that film several times, and never found it homophobic or anti-gay.
In defense of OscarGuy, his quip was directed towards a fictional character, whereas your "queens" comment was directed towards members of this board, and real people.
In defense of OscarGuy, his quip was directed towards a fictional character, whereas your "queens" comment was directed towards members of this board, and real people.
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rolotomasi99
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tim robbins' escape from prison seems like the bigger stretch of the imagination. freeman has been in prison for a very long time. the entire movie is about how wise he has become from the many years he has had to contemplate life and people. if malcolm x could go from a petty thug to a leader for civil rights just by spending some time in prison, why could freeman's character not undergo a transformation that made him smarter than most people of his time? he probably has seen quite a bit of stuff in his 40 odd years in there, and can tell the difference between a rapist and a homosexual (which were considered equally illegal at that time).Sonic Youth wrote:"neither are they. you have to be human first. they don't qualify."
An EXTREMELY radical statement to be uttered in the 1940s, and by someone who's been in prison since his teens. It wiped away both homophobia and credibility in one fell swoop.
as for you oscar guy, are you giving me carte blanche to make whatever offensive remark i want as long as i put a smiley face behind it? it was not so much the words you used, but the fact that you totally dismissed what she had to say. NOTES ON A SCANDAL was an offensive movie. not as bad as CRUISING or WINDOWS, but still i thought things were supposed to get better after BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN not worse.
"When it comes to the subject of torture, I trust a woman who was married to James Cameron for three years."
-- Amy Poehler in praise of Zero Dark Thirty director Kathryn Bigelow
-- Amy Poehler in praise of Zero Dark Thirty director Kathryn Bigelow
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rolotomasi99 wrote:think about THE SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION. that whole film could have been one long anti-gay prison rape joke, but frank darabont did something very smart. at the beginning of the film he has morgan freeman say to tim robbins that the rapists were after him. robbins asked if it would help if he explained to them that he is not a homosexual. freeman responds, "neither are they. you have to be human first. they don't qualify." with that, the whole homophobic nature of the film is wiped away.
An EXTREMELY radical statement to be uttered in the 1940s, and by someone who's been in prison since his teens. It wiped away both homophobia and credibility in one fell swoop.
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rolotomasi99
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i got in trouble for saying "show tune queens" but you get to say that!OscarGuy wrote:touchy touchy dykes.Anyway, I didn't get any sense of homophobia from the film. It's an honest portrayal of obsession.
well, i for one agree with that excellent review from afterellen. this is a very homophobic film. i would say any film where the only gay (in action if not in name) character is the villain is homophobic. i have no problem with gay characters being portrayed as bad (the boys from BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN were not exactly role models), but there has to be something else as well.
MONSTER did a very good job of not allowing the whole film to be about the "crazy lesbian serial killer." it showed that her relationship with the christina ricci character could have been her salvation, if fate would have allowed it.
think about THE SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION. that whole film could have been one long anti-gay prison rape joke, but frank darabont did something very smart. at the beginning of the film he has morgan freeman say to tim robbins that the rapists were after him. robbins asked if it would help if he explained to them that he is not a homosexual. freeman responds, "neither are they. you have to be human first. they don't qualify." with that, the whole homophobic nature of the film is wiped away.
unfortunately, NOTES ON A SCANDAL does not have any moment like that.
"When it comes to the subject of torture, I trust a woman who was married to James Cameron for three years."
-- Amy Poehler in praise of Zero Dark Thirty director Kathryn Bigelow
-- Amy Poehler in praise of Zero Dark Thirty director Kathryn Bigelow
The Independent
Film Review by Roger Clarke
Judi Dench has never done quite enough evil in my view. In one of her most thrilling performances yet, she elevates Notes on a Scandal from being a pedestrian and bootstrapped British psychodrama into something very special indeed. The merciless way her hungry bluestocking casts her net around Cate Blanchett's footling and vain art teacher is a masterclass of psychological acting as good as anything Dame Judi has done in her entire career.
Edited By flipp525 on 1168020538
Film Review by Roger Clarke
Judi Dench has never done quite enough evil in my view. In one of her most thrilling performances yet, she elevates Notes on a Scandal from being a pedestrian and bootstrapped British psychodrama into something very special indeed. The merciless way her hungry bluestocking casts her net around Cate Blanchett's footling and vain art teacher is a masterclass of psychological acting as good as anything Dame Judi has done in her entire career.
Edited By flipp525 on 1168020538
"The mantle of spinsterhood was definitely in her shoulders. She was twenty five and looked it."
-Gone With the Wind by Margaret Mitchell
-Gone With the Wind by Margaret Mitchell
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Big Magilla
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Bette Davis and Greer Garson are tied for the most nominations in a short period of time - 6 in 7 years - Davis in 38,39.40,41,42 and 44 and Garson in 39, 41, 42, 43, 44 and 45. Meryl Streep took 8 years to amass 6 nods - 78, 79, 81, 82, 83 and 85. Dench's 6 in 10 is still amazing considering her age and the fact that none of her nominations were for films made in the U.S.