I just don't see it, but I'm willing to be convinced.Reza wrote:I have at least three books on noir which lists this film as one.rain Bard wrote:I hope Daisy Kenyon can be classified as a noir.
Best Actor 1947
"Y'know, that's one of the things I like about Mitt Romney. He's been consistent since he changed his mind." -- Christine O'Donnell
Missing from that list is a glaring omission common to so many noirs that its absence really mars the list: the shadow of World War II is often made explicit, usually through a character with a past as a veteran. Obviously not a requirement of every noir, but then neither is a femme (or homme) fatale in a picture containing a majority of other elements.
I hope Daisy Kenyon can be classified as a noir. I want to see it on the big screen before resorting to watching it on video, and since I missed it at the 2009 Otto Preminger retrospective (despite trying my hardest to cab over from work in time for its sole screening, I failed to make it in time), its best chance of playing at a theatre near me is if one of the local noir festivals programs it.
I hope Daisy Kenyon can be classified as a noir. I want to see it on the big screen before resorting to watching it on video, and since I missed it at the 2009 Otto Preminger retrospective (despite trying my hardest to cab over from work in time for its sole screening, I failed to make it in time), its best chance of playing at a theatre near me is if one of the local noir festivals programs it.
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Big Magilla
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Quite possibly my favorite, cynical and ironic line of all time.Mike Kelly wrote:From The Third Man: Orson Welles: In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.
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Mike Kelly
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Here's a handy little check list on the elements of film noir, coined Norimetrics
Noirmetrics List
CHARACTER ELEMENTS:
Femme fatale or an homme fatale-
Morally ambiguous protagonist(s)
Alienated protagonist(s)
A fall guy (gal)
Violence relative to character development/interaction
MISE-EN-SCENE / SETTING ELEMENTS
Black and white cinematography
Low-angle shooting/expressionistic techniques
A sense of fatalism (either spoken or visual)
Use of mise-en-scene to portray alienation
Odd camera angles or visual effects/sequences
An urban setting
Exotic/remote/barren location setting
Night club and/or gambling setting
PLOT / SCREENWRITING ELEMENTS
A convoluted story line
Use of flashbacks
A murder or heist at the center of the story
A spoken narrative
A betrayal or a double-cross
Story told from the perspective of the criminals
False accusation (or fear of same)
Sexual relationships vs. plot development
Hard-boiled dialogue/repartee
A Noir vs. gris denouement
Speaking of hard boiled dialogue or repartee, here are some of my favorite noir quotes:
From Out of the Past: Robert Mitchum -You're like a leaf that the wind blows from one gutter to the other.
From In a Lonely Place: Humphrey bogart - I was born when she kissed me. I died when she left me. I lived a few weeks while she loved me.
From The Third Man: Orson Welles: In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.
From The Spanish Prisoner: Ricky Jay - Worry is like interest paid in advance on a debt that never comes due.
From Double Indemnity: Fred MacMurray - Suddenly it came over me that everything would go wrong... I couldn't hear my own footsteps. It was the walk of a dead man.
From The Big Sleep: Charles Waldren and Humphrey Bogart - Do you like orchids? Not particularly. Ugh. Nasty things. Their flesh is too much like the flesh of men, and their perfume has the rotten sweetness of corruption.
From Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid: Rachel Ward and Steve Martin - What are you doing? Adjusting your breasts. You fainted and they... shifted all outta whack.
From The Big Combo: Richard Conte - Diamond, the only trouble with you is, you'd like to be me. You'd like to have my organization, my influence, my fix. You can't, it's impossible. You think it's money. It's not. It's personality. You haven't got it. You're a cop. Slow. Steady. Intelligent. With a bad temper and a gun under your arm. With a big yen for a girl you can't have. First is first and second is nobody.
From Sudden Fear: Jack Palance - I'm so crazy about you I could break your bones.
From Millers Crossing: Albert Finney - You ain't got a license to kill bookies and today I ain't sellin'. So take your flunky and dangle.
From Memento: Elizabeth Moss - Is that what your little note says? It must be hard living your life off a couple of scraps of paper. You mix your laundry list with your grocery list you'll end up eating your underwear for breakfast.
From Devil in a Blue Dress: Don Cheedle - You said don't shoot him, right? Well, I didn't. I strangled him. If you didn't want me to kill him, why did you leave me alone with him?
From Brick: David Gordon Levitt - Come on at me, if you want, Hash-head. I've got all five senses and I slept last night, that puts me six up against the lot of you.
Noirmetrics List
CHARACTER ELEMENTS:
Femme fatale or an homme fatale-
Morally ambiguous protagonist(s)
Alienated protagonist(s)
A fall guy (gal)
Violence relative to character development/interaction
MISE-EN-SCENE / SETTING ELEMENTS
Black and white cinematography
Low-angle shooting/expressionistic techniques
A sense of fatalism (either spoken or visual)
Use of mise-en-scene to portray alienation
Odd camera angles or visual effects/sequences
An urban setting
Exotic/remote/barren location setting
Night club and/or gambling setting
PLOT / SCREENWRITING ELEMENTS
A convoluted story line
Use of flashbacks
A murder or heist at the center of the story
A spoken narrative
A betrayal or a double-cross
Story told from the perspective of the criminals
False accusation (or fear of same)
Sexual relationships vs. plot development
Hard-boiled dialogue/repartee
A Noir vs. gris denouement
Speaking of hard boiled dialogue or repartee, here are some of my favorite noir quotes:
From Out of the Past: Robert Mitchum -You're like a leaf that the wind blows from one gutter to the other.
From In a Lonely Place: Humphrey bogart - I was born when she kissed me. I died when she left me. I lived a few weeks while she loved me.
From The Third Man: Orson Welles: In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.
From The Spanish Prisoner: Ricky Jay - Worry is like interest paid in advance on a debt that never comes due.
From Double Indemnity: Fred MacMurray - Suddenly it came over me that everything would go wrong... I couldn't hear my own footsteps. It was the walk of a dead man.
From The Big Sleep: Charles Waldren and Humphrey Bogart - Do you like orchids? Not particularly. Ugh. Nasty things. Their flesh is too much like the flesh of men, and their perfume has the rotten sweetness of corruption.
From Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid: Rachel Ward and Steve Martin - What are you doing? Adjusting your breasts. You fainted and they... shifted all outta whack.
From The Big Combo: Richard Conte - Diamond, the only trouble with you is, you'd like to be me. You'd like to have my organization, my influence, my fix. You can't, it's impossible. You think it's money. It's not. It's personality. You haven't got it. You're a cop. Slow. Steady. Intelligent. With a bad temper and a gun under your arm. With a big yen for a girl you can't have. First is first and second is nobody.
From Sudden Fear: Jack Palance - I'm so crazy about you I could break your bones.
From Millers Crossing: Albert Finney - You ain't got a license to kill bookies and today I ain't sellin'. So take your flunky and dangle.
From Memento: Elizabeth Moss - Is that what your little note says? It must be hard living your life off a couple of scraps of paper. You mix your laundry list with your grocery list you'll end up eating your underwear for breakfast.
From Devil in a Blue Dress: Don Cheedle - You said don't shoot him, right? Well, I didn't. I strangled him. If you didn't want me to kill him, why did you leave me alone with him?
From Brick: David Gordon Levitt - Come on at me, if you want, Hash-head. I've got all five senses and I slept last night, that puts me six up against the lot of you.
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Big Magilla
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Daisy Kenyon is a romance melodrama ("woman's picture") and psychological character study. Other than having a New York milieu (much of the time any way), there's nothing noir about it.
"Y'know, that's one of the things I like about Mitt Romney. He's been consistent since he changed his mind." -- Christine O'Donnell
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Big Magilla
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I thought of Daisy Kenyon, but wasn't sure it was actually considered a noir so I checked IMDb. and they did not classify it as such. But it certainly has elements of one. Same goes for The Fugitive, which they didn't classify as such either.
I did forget one that was staring me in the face: A Double Life.
I did forget one that was staring me in the face: A Double Life.
Daisy Kenyon?Big Magilla wrote:I haven't seen Quay of the Goldsmiths and although I think I did see The Gangster, I don;t remember it, but I'd certainly endorse the others and add:
Out of the Past
Odd Man Out
Body and Soul
Crossfire
Boomerang!
Dark Passage
Dead Reckoning
Kiss of Death
Possessed
The Two Mrs. Carrolls
They Won't Believe Me
Nora Prentiss
The Unfaithful
The Unsuspected
Deep Valley
Born to Kill
The Man I Love
Desert Fury
Ride the Pink Horse
Johnny O'Clock
The Long Night
Lured
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Big Magilla
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I haven't seen Quay of the Goldsmiths and although I think I did see The Gangster, I don;t remember it, but I'd certainly endorse the others and add:
Out of the Past
Odd Man Out
Body and Soul
Crossfire
Boomerang!
Dark Passage
Dead Reckoning
Kiss of Death
Possessed
The Two Mrs. Carrolls
They Won't Believe Me
Nora Prentiss
The Unfaithful
The Unsuspected
Deep Valley
Born to Kill
The Man I Love
Desert Fury
Ride the Pink Horse
Johnny O'Clock
The Long Night
Lured
Out of the Past
Odd Man Out
Body and Soul
Crossfire
Boomerang!
Dark Passage
Dead Reckoning
Kiss of Death
Possessed
The Two Mrs. Carrolls
They Won't Believe Me
Nora Prentiss
The Unfaithful
The Unsuspected
Deep Valley
Born to Kill
The Man I Love
Desert Fury
Ride the Pink Horse
Johnny O'Clock
The Long Night
Lured
More 1947 noirs worth shouting (or at least raising one's voice) about:
Nightmare Alley
They Won't Believe Me
The Woman On The Beach
The Lady From Shanghai
Born To Kill
High Wall
Dark Passage
Pursued
The Gangster
Desperate
Railroaded
and if foreign noirs count:
Quai Des Orfevres
Brighton Rock
It Always Rains On Sunday
and those are just the ones I've seen...
Nightmare Alley
They Won't Believe Me
The Woman On The Beach
The Lady From Shanghai
Born To Kill
High Wall
Dark Passage
Pursued
The Gangster
Desperate
Railroaded
and if foreign noirs count:
Quai Des Orfevres
Brighton Rock
It Always Rains On Sunday
and those are just the ones I've seen...
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Big Magilla
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I've only seen Gentleman's Agreement and Body and Soul. There's no competition. John Garfield. I won't be voting, but there it is.
Was 1947 heralded as one of the great years in the history of noir? Between Kiss of Death, Out of the Past, and Crossfire, the stateliness of prototypical Best Picture winner Gentleman's Agreement seems especially stale. Interesting that this would seem to be one of the great years for both world-weary heroism and nasty villainy, both staples for noir. Oscars are for squirts.
Richard Widmark. Greatest Joker ever.
Was 1947 heralded as one of the great years in the history of noir? Between Kiss of Death, Out of the Past, and Crossfire, the stateliness of prototypical Best Picture winner Gentleman's Agreement seems especially stale. Interesting that this would seem to be one of the great years for both world-weary heroism and nasty villainy, both staples for noir. Oscars are for squirts.
Richard Widmark. Greatest Joker ever.
"How's the despair?"
A few years before Ronald Colman had starred in a shameless (though enjoyable) melodrama, Random Harvest, and without falling into its potential traps had been able to give an admirably reserved, and quite subtle, performance. Not easy in those circumstances - which of course makes THAT movie, absurd as it is, still watchable today, A Double Life was certainly a more "prestigious" effort, and Cukor, at least officially, a better director than Mervyn Le Roy - yet both the movie and Colman's ambitious performance in it haven't aged well.
Of the others, I feel that Michael Redgrave has been unfairly dismissed here. I'm not saying that his performance is perfect, and of course Electra is Lavinia's play - yet Orin is an extremely complex role, probably one of the greatest roles for an actor in American theatre - and it's not like the American theatre doesn't have some wonderful roles for actors - and I'm sure that with a better director to guide him Redgrave (a famously talented performer) might have been truly memorable. As it is, his is just an interesting attempt - but I'm glad that it got him the only nomination of his important career.
John Garfield back then may have been seen as a hopeless, though deserving, nominee - kind of an Edward Norton in American History X. But after so many years, he's today the only possible choice.
Of the others, I feel that Michael Redgrave has been unfairly dismissed here. I'm not saying that his performance is perfect, and of course Electra is Lavinia's play - yet Orin is an extremely complex role, probably one of the greatest roles for an actor in American theatre - and it's not like the American theatre doesn't have some wonderful roles for actors - and I'm sure that with a better director to guide him Redgrave (a famously talented performer) might have been truly memorable. As it is, his is just an interesting attempt - but I'm glad that it got him the only nomination of his important career.
John Garfield back then may have been seen as a hopeless, though deserving, nominee - kind of an Edward Norton in American History X. But after so many years, he's today the only possible choice.