Preface to Oscar Shouldabeens
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Holy crap, people. Can no one read? I said I MOVED all the threads and I do mean ALL that had not been responded to in more than 4 months. It had nothing to do with threads sharing common themes or anything. It was a blanket shift. And they aren't deleted so no one get their panties in a wad.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin
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BJ, I second that option. I can't imagine these take that much room, and to me are an important and vital part of this board. Even if I don't reply, everytime I watch an older film I check those Oscar Shouldabeens tosee what other people on the board thought of it in terms of that years films. I will miss those posts.
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Mister Tee, I hope you don't feel like you have to post any lists just for me! Only if you want to!
But, for what it's worth, I do prefer lists of older years (pre-'80s) simply because I haven't seen so many of those titles. Not that I wouldn't be interested in more recent years as well, which are likely easier to compile, since films are fresher in memory.
But, for what it's worth, I do prefer lists of older years (pre-'80s) simply because I haven't seen so many of those titles. Not that I wouldn't be interested in more recent years as well, which are likely easier to compile, since films are fresher in memory.
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Mister Tee, I completely understand what you mean about being as dissatisfied with your own lists as with the Academy's. (Well, almost. My lists may not be perfect, but I KNOW they're better than Oscar's.)
I've been award-watching for less than a decade, but the personal favorite vs. popular/critical favorite dilemma has bugged me for years, particularly when said popular favorite is given the brush by the Academy. This year, for instance, personal picks like The Best of Youth, The New World, and Junebug filled out my Best Picture lineup, but I hated to leave off A History of Violence, easily one of the two best reviewed films of the year, and a very good picture that deserved far more mainstream awards recognition than it received. In effect, I've always thought of Best Picture as the most personal category of them all; there is an element of objectivity to judging cinematography or writing, but I have little criteria for evaluating what I throw in the top category except for personal enjoyment.
I also agree that, especially in recent years, many categories are difficult to fill out. This is not to say that there are not worthy achievements in those categories, only that, after picking the top two or three standouts in any given year, I often find it difficult to differentiate between spaces 4 through 7, 8, or 9. (This is one reason why I find it nearly impossible to rank my nominees numerically; it's hard enough to figure out who should be in and who should be out and who should win the prize without having to debate over who deserves the silver and bronze.) I have found this problem incredibly prevalent in the Foreign Language and Documentary categories, which often contain two or three films I love, and about eight or nine more films I like about equally with only two empty spots.
Furthermore, I've found that, even in my relatively short award-listing time, some of my choices seem odd in retrospect. Recent viewings of some films have affirmed my original choices, making me wonder why I had any doubts; other viewings have made me perplexed at how I could have chosen certain films and performances over others even as recent as last year. I guess I've sort of realized that these award lists are not meant to be set in stone, but are ALWAYS in flux based on my fluid affection for various films. This is how I would hope others view these lists as well: not as the final word on any given year in cinema, but as a jumping off point for discussion about our differing tastes and, more importantly, as a way to get viewing ideas for under-the-radar films that others have loved.
I would like to list my Shouldabeens for the past seventy-odd years, a goal that will take many years to realize. I am starting by revising my lists from the past few years based on second and third viewings of recent favorites, and going from there. I encourage Mister Tee (and all of you with more cinematic perspective than I do) to list your own faves. I always enjoy reading your lists.
I've been award-watching for less than a decade, but the personal favorite vs. popular/critical favorite dilemma has bugged me for years, particularly when said popular favorite is given the brush by the Academy. This year, for instance, personal picks like The Best of Youth, The New World, and Junebug filled out my Best Picture lineup, but I hated to leave off A History of Violence, easily one of the two best reviewed films of the year, and a very good picture that deserved far more mainstream awards recognition than it received. In effect, I've always thought of Best Picture as the most personal category of them all; there is an element of objectivity to judging cinematography or writing, but I have little criteria for evaluating what I throw in the top category except for personal enjoyment.
I also agree that, especially in recent years, many categories are difficult to fill out. This is not to say that there are not worthy achievements in those categories, only that, after picking the top two or three standouts in any given year, I often find it difficult to differentiate between spaces 4 through 7, 8, or 9. (This is one reason why I find it nearly impossible to rank my nominees numerically; it's hard enough to figure out who should be in and who should be out and who should win the prize without having to debate over who deserves the silver and bronze.) I have found this problem incredibly prevalent in the Foreign Language and Documentary categories, which often contain two or three films I love, and about eight or nine more films I like about equally with only two empty spots.
Furthermore, I've found that, even in my relatively short award-listing time, some of my choices seem odd in retrospect. Recent viewings of some films have affirmed my original choices, making me wonder why I had any doubts; other viewings have made me perplexed at how I could have chosen certain films and performances over others even as recent as last year. I guess I've sort of realized that these award lists are not meant to be set in stone, but are ALWAYS in flux based on my fluid affection for various films. This is how I would hope others view these lists as well: not as the final word on any given year in cinema, but as a jumping off point for discussion about our differing tastes and, more importantly, as a way to get viewing ideas for under-the-radar films that others have loved.
I would like to list my Shouldabeens for the past seventy-odd years, a goal that will take many years to realize. I am starting by revising my lists from the past few years based on second and third viewings of recent favorites, and going from there. I encourage Mister Tee (and all of you with more cinematic perspective than I do) to list your own faves. I always enjoy reading your lists.
I know I shouldn't care and I know that the Song category is almost always the lousiest pick, but I can't help it, this one STILL bothers me. Not only is "When She Loved Me" one of Newman's best songs (and actually advanced the plot of the film, adding character nuance and delineation rather than just being a pop contemporary Celine Dion shrieker), but Aimee Mann's work on Magnolia remains one of the finest collection of songs you will ever have the pleasure of listening to. Seriously. She's so good that this horrid choice still hurts. You're unlikely to find a lyricist whose nimbler and more prolific than she (I'd put her in the same category as Cole Porter or Howard Ashman).Mister Tee wrote:or, most unforgivably, in '99, they picked You'll Be In My Heart over both Save Me and When She Loved Me, I came to the conclusion they would inevitably opt for the most vapid nominee on offer.
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Mister Tee wrote:A few years back, Magilla had started a similar, wonderful set of threads discussing the major nominees of each year, with comment on who was deserving, who was missing, and how the races evolved. I posted extensive comments under pretty much every year's thread back to the early 60s -- the years of which I had personal memories -- and, moving backward, had begun to cover the films of the earlier years...when, one day, I came to the site and every word had been wiped away (only days after I'd thought to myself, I really ought to copy this stuff somewhere). That so disheartened me that I guess I've been slow to chime in here. But perhaps you'll inspire me to pitch in.
I did manage to save my input from four years ago, but unfortunately none of yours or anyone else's. I began with 2001 and worked back to 1964 when the threads disappeared. I haven't actually looked at them since. It might be interesting to take a look at what I still agree with and what I don't.
Maybe I'll use them as a basis for a book.
Edited By Big Magilla on 1149046384
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As you might guess, I've more or less been compiling such lists over the years (generally a year or so after the Oscar fact, as it takes me that long to catch up with all conceivable contenders). The odd thing is, I usually end up as dissatisfied with mine as with the Academy's...it seems I'm usually having to stretch -- giving nominations to half-worthies to fill out categories -- or over-rewarding favorite films down the line, in such categories as sound or editing. Then there's always the quirky-personal-favorite vs. big-contender conundrum -- my own favorite five of last year were probably Good Night, Brokeback, Look at Me, Mysterious Skin and Match Point; but I'd hardly be anxious to eradicate Munich from the list of the year's notables.The Original BJ wrote:I'd also like to ask this question:
Mister Tee, is there any chance we'll ever get YOUR Oscar Shouldabeens?
I guess what I'm saying is, I'm more comfortable discussing the various years in less stratified terms. A few years back, Magilla had started a similar, wonderful set of threads discussing the major nominees of each year, with comment on who was deserving, who was missing, and how the races evolved. I posted extensive comments under pretty much every year's thread back to the early 60s -- the years of which I had personal memories -- and, moving backward, had begun to cover the films of the earlier years...when, one day, I came to the site and every word had been wiped away (only days after I'd thought to myself, I really ought to copy this stuff somewhere). That so disheartened me that I guess I've been slow to chime in here. But perhaps you'll inspire me to pitch in.
By the way, I didn't mean to imply I hated all Alan Menken's stuff. I can fully endorse his earlier wins -- Beauty and the Beast is such a glorious ballad, it even deserved to win in the same year as Tears in Heaven. It was just that, by the time Pocahontas came along, the whole Disney cartoon thing had come to feel so generic and the music so bland that I was rooting for ANYTHING else to win. (I also hated the music branch's going for the same sorts of ballads each year. I thought the Go the Distance tune in Hercules was nowhere near as much fun as the girl-group pastiche I Won't Say I'm In Love in the same film)
Magilla, I was always surprised I Got a Name didn't make the Oscar list in '73. It not only made the charts, it was a posthumous hit for Jim Croce just months after his fatal plane crash; how could they have resisted that story? It was even, I recall, among the ten finalists, but somehow left off for those immortal toe-tappers from Cinderella Liberty and A Touch of Class (one of which was sung -- horribly -- by Telly Savalas)
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BJ, thanks again for your support.
Good suggestions, Mister Tee. I wrestled with including a few things from The Beatles' A Hard Day's Night and Help! but at least in 1964-1965 there were still decent songs being composed for films - The Beatles' songs, except for the title tunes, struck me as songs that were not really written for the films but were incidentally used in films before being released on record. I also wanted to nominate somethign from Yellow Submarine in 1968 but declined to do so for the same reason.
I kept kicking myslef trying to remember what the song from The Last American Hero was that I liked - I must have had some sort of block because I Got a Name is one of my all-time favorite songs as is Who Knows Where the Time Goes from The Subject Was Roses, but I think it appeared on a Judy Collins album before the film came out. I've happily revised both years to not only include those two songs but to give them the top prize they deserve despite my concern that they may not have been officially eligible.
I'm almost embarassed to admit I had On and On on my 1974 list and dropped it in favor of one of the catchy, if silly, tunes from Lost Horizon.
Good suggestions, Mister Tee. I wrestled with including a few things from The Beatles' A Hard Day's Night and Help! but at least in 1964-1965 there were still decent songs being composed for films - The Beatles' songs, except for the title tunes, struck me as songs that were not really written for the films but were incidentally used in films before being released on record. I also wanted to nominate somethign from Yellow Submarine in 1968 but declined to do so for the same reason.
I kept kicking myslef trying to remember what the song from The Last American Hero was that I liked - I must have had some sort of block because I Got a Name is one of my all-time favorite songs as is Who Knows Where the Time Goes from The Subject Was Roses, but I think it appeared on a Judy Collins album before the film came out. I've happily revised both years to not only include those two songs but to give them the top prize they deserve despite my concern that they may not have been officially eligible.
I'm almost embarassed to admit I had On and On on my 1974 list and dropped it in favor of one of the catchy, if silly, tunes from Lost Horizon.
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I actually think Alan Menken was one of film music's saving graces in the late '80s and '90s. His scores to The Little Mermaid, Aladdin, and especially Beauty and the Beast are superb, and Pocahontas, Hercules, and The Hunchback of Notre Dame are all quite good.
However, the selection of You'll Be in My Heart over When She Loved Me (or Save Me or Blame Canada, but REALLY When She Loved Me) is unforgivable. Thank you for reminding me, Mister Tee, of one of the most devastating moments of any Oscar ceremony I have watched.
However, the selection of You'll Be in My Heart over When She Loved Me (or Save Me or Blame Canada, but REALLY When She Loved Me) is unforgivable. Thank you for reminding me, Mister Tee, of one of the most devastating moments of any Oscar ceremony I have watched.
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Sadly, BJ, the Academy seems filled with people who groove on Diane Warren-ish stuff (even if they've never quite given her their actual prize). When voters, finally offered respectable alternatives to Alan Menken in 1995 (Springsteen, or even Have You Ever Really Loved a Woman?) reflexively gave him yet another award, I groaned aloud. And when, in 1998, they chose When You Believe over The Prayer, or, most unforgivably, in '99, they picked You'll Be In My Heart over both Save Me and When She Loved Me, I came to the conclusion they would inevitably opt for the most vapid nominee on offer. (Though they somehow managed the pleasing choice of Il Otro Lado del Rio over sappy competitors)
Magilla, do you have something against the Beatles? Nothing from A Hard Day's Night or Help? I can see not knowing which to pick from the former (though I'd go for And I Love Her). But You've Got to Hide Your Love Away is easily my favorite movie song of '65.
Rather than work in every individual thread, I'll throw in a few more from the 60s/70s I'd have advocated:
'68 - Who Knows Where the Time Goes (I assume it was eligible, from The Subject Was Roses)
'70 - Suicide is Painless
'73 - I Got a Name, from The Last American Hero
'74 - On and On, from Claudine (far from Mayfield at his best, but my favorite from the musically dreckiest year of the decade)
'76 - So Sad the Song, a forgotten Gladys Knight tune from the equally forgotten film Pipe Dreams
Very happy you highlighted (Don't You) Forget About Me in '85 -- my favorite movie tune that year.
Magilla, do you have something against the Beatles? Nothing from A Hard Day's Night or Help? I can see not knowing which to pick from the former (though I'd go for And I Love Her). But You've Got to Hide Your Love Away is easily my favorite movie song of '65.
Rather than work in every individual thread, I'll throw in a few more from the 60s/70s I'd have advocated:
'68 - Who Knows Where the Time Goes (I assume it was eligible, from The Subject Was Roses)
'70 - Suicide is Painless
'73 - I Got a Name, from The Last American Hero
'74 - On and On, from Claudine (far from Mayfield at his best, but my favorite from the musically dreckiest year of the decade)
'76 - So Sad the Song, a forgotten Gladys Knight tune from the equally forgotten film Pipe Dreams
Very happy you highlighted (Don't You) Forget About Me in '85 -- my favorite movie tune that year.