Short Lists for Multiple Categories

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Re: Short Lists for Multiple Categories

Post by Mister Tee »

Precious Doll wrote:
Mister Tee wrote: From what I've been reading, Girl would have been a Twitter war waiting to happen, so its omission from the foreign shortlist may be a blessing for the Academy. The list as is features far more prominent candidates than we usually see.
Mister Tee,

Is the issue to do with the gender of the actor playing the title role?
There've been a multitude of responses between when you asked this and now, but, to answer, directly: that presumably plays a part (and Sabin is right: how do you not expect that in our current environment?). But there are also people who seem to have a problem with how the storyline plays out in the film. Since I haven't seen it, I don't know what they're talking about, but I've heard the term "dangerous" thrown around. Which doesn't mean that's a rational response -- sometimes people use that word to mean "doesn't grease my prejudices" -- but it did lead me to think there'd be significant backlash (especially from trans critics, a number of whom who don't appear to like the film).

To other things:

In best song, I never bet against Diane Warren.

The effects in Black Panther don't that much impress me, either (from what I've seen, Ready Player One's effects are easily the most memorable), but it's hard to believe a movie that's being treated as an event would be left out of the one category even low-tier Marvel movies have managed to nail.

I do wonder if a certain circular reasoning is setting in with Black Panther: we think it'll get a lot of below-the-line nominations because a best picture nominee should, and it's going to be a best picture nominee because it can get a bunch of tech nods. I'm inclined to think the best picture nomination will happen because of all the hype and because it's a lackluster year, but it's not utterly impossible the film gets a few stray low-level nods and calls it a day.
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Re: Short Lists for Multiple Categories

Post by HarryGoldfarb »

Sabin wrote:
HarryGoldfarb wrote
Contrary to the VFX situation, I do think Black Panther has a shot in this one. The whole body makeup of Michael B. Jordan (a constant focus in the film) could be enough; but on top of that, since now the category heavily focus on hairstyling, this specific work could be cited in the end. Take a look at this article:
Honestly, Makeup can go any specific way. I think the hairstylings are remarkable as well in Black Panther. It definitely has a shot. I just went: 1) Prosthetic face acting, 2) Foreign film, 3) Historical costume drama.
Makes sense... nice criteria.

Border is already out of the Foreign Language race. Doesn’t this hurt it a little bit?

Even though recent Swedish entries have unexpectedly secure a nomination, those were from the same team (Love Larson and Eva von Bahr), neither of whom appears in the extensive list of makeup artists credited on IMDB for Border.
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Re: Short Lists for Multiple Categories

Post by Sabin »

OscarGuy wrote
Black Panther should be nominated in Original Score, Cinematography, Production Design, and Costume Design. I don't remember the song well enough to say it should be nominated there. Best Picture I'll accept simply because it is the best film of its genre and better than a lot else that came out this year that's being touted (I don't completely understand the adoration for A Star Is Born).
Rachel Morrison has a very good shot at a nomination for Best Cinematography. That said, this film has terrible green-screen photography. Some of the worst I've seen in years. Not deserved.
HarryGoldfarb wrote
Contrary to the VFX situation, I do think Black Panther has a shot in this one. The whole body makeup of Michael B. Jordan (a constant focus in the film) could be enough; but on top of that, since now the category heavily focus on hairstyling, this specific work could be cited in the end. Take a look at this article:
Honestly, Makeup can go any specific way. I think the hairstylings are remarkable as well in Black Panther. It definitely has a shot. I just went: 1) Prosthetic face acting, 2) Foreign film, 3) Historical costume drama.
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Re: Short Lists for Multiple Categories

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Black Panther should be nominated in Original Score, Cinematography, Production Design, and Costume Design. I don't remember the song well enough to say it should be nominated there. Best Picture I'll accept simply because it is the best film of its genre and better than a lot else that came out this year that's being touted (I don't completely understand the adoration for A Star Is Born).
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Re: Short Lists for Multiple Categories

Post by Reza »

Sabin wrote:...The VFX of Black Panther are just so poor
I really liked Black Panther but think the only nomination it truly deserves is for costume design. Too much is being written into the film being some kind of masterpiece. Yes it touched on the Black experience and incorporated that into a Superhero scenario in an interesting way. But the film is no masterpiece.
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Re: Short Lists for Multiple Categories

Post by HarryGoldfarb »

Sabin wrote: BEST VISUAL EFFECTS
...The VFX of Black Panther are just so poor.
This is absolutely true, and quite evident in the final battle scene (those rhinos, ugh!), and something everybody seems to agree on... however if the Academy realy endorses this film, it would be somehow odd that a special effects driven film fails to get nominated in this specific category. And this is no Arrival, a film with subtle VFX.
Sabin wrote:BEST MAKEUP
BORDER
MARY, QUEEN OF SCOTS
VICE
Contrary to the VFX situation, I do think Black Panther has a shot in this one. The whole body makeup of Michael B. Jordan (a constant focus in the film) could be enough; but on top of that, since now the category heavily focus on hairstyling, this specific work could be cited in the end. Take a look at this article:

https://people.com/style/black-panther- ... ing-looks/
Sabin wrote:BEST ORIGINAL SONG
BLACK PANTHER / “All the Stars”
BOY ERASED / “Revelation”
THE HATE U GIVE / "We Won't Move"
MARY POPPINS RETURNS / “Trip a Little Light Fantastic”
A STAR IS BORN / “Shallow”
Other than "Shallow" and any of the Mary Poppins Returns entries, everything here is up in the air, and valid arguments can be made about many other options.

"All the Stars" would be my choice too, easily... and though I'm hopeful, I can see it being left outside. But it's from the movie you have to like no matter what (the Black Panther situation seems like an echo from the 12 Years a Slave thing back in 2012; you JUST have to like it or face the risk of being called racist. Even Ellen opened her monologue that year saying this), and it's Kendrick (the now Pulitzer award winner) and all in all, is a superb song.

"Girl in the Movies" is a pretty song, far from corny. And it's Dolly Parton, a National Treasure in US. Two time nominee, in my book she should have won in 2005. Even if I don't know a thing about the movie it comes from, the song is good enough to be considered in the race. Its choice would be deserving.

The song from Quincy ("Keep Reachin'") is a good one. It can fill the spot for the Documentary song (an increasingly more common thing as years go by); Quincy Jones himself, a previous nominee, is one of the songwriters. And on top of that you have Mark Ronson in the songwriters team. As T. Bone Burnett a few years ago, Ronson is currently one of the hottest musicians/producers currently working so it would be fitting to have him as a nominee. The song is not my cup of tea, but it could unite people from old school and the younger generations.

Perennial Academy Award Diane Warren should be in the discussion too, specially since her song from ASIB was not submitted. "I'll fight" is so typical of Warren, and the arrangement seems already dated ("Halo" anybody?) but it's her, I mean... it wouldn't surprise me to see the woman getting her 10th Oscar nomination...

Sade is a musician I always enjoy... but her song ("The Big Unknown" from Widows) seems too out there, too unfriendly for the Academy taste to secure a nomination.

Finally, the song from Ralph Breaks the Internet ("A Place Called Slaughter Race") has some pretty clever lyrics. A sharp variation of the disney princess song, I can see it getting a nod.

For what it's worth, there's something called Hollywood Music in Media Awards... I do not know how good a precursor it is, but "Shallow", "All the Stars" and "'ll Fight" won awards for Best Song in their respective categories (drama, sci-fi and documentary).
Last edited by HarryGoldfarb on Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Short Lists for Multiple Categories

Post by Sabin »

Okri wrote
Yeah, what oscarguy said. Of course cisgendered actors should be able to play transgendered characters. But pretending that trans actors have the same opportunities for visibility and roles is ridiculous. Precious, I can buy the idea that this director of Girl did cast a wide enough swath when searching (it's a fairly specific dance role, after all) but I can also believe he didn't look hard enough. I don't understand why that's controversial for some people.
It's silly to think that you can cast someone who isn't trans in a trans role and not get some criticism. How hard is that to understand? You don't have to care, but you do have to understand.

These are some very competitive categories. Having seen as little as I have (please give me thoughts/talk me out of some of these):

BEST VISUAL EFFECTS
AVENGERS: INFINITY WAR
FIRST MAN
MARY POPPINS RETURNS
READY PLAYER ONE
SOLO: A STAR WARS STORY
...The VFX of Black Panther are just so poor.

BEST MAKEUP
BORDER
MARY, QUEEN OF SCOTS
VICE
...With The Favourite out of the way, this looks to go to Vice. I know some people have Bohemian Rhapsody in the mix, but I'm not so sure when there is other work that is so much more visible.

BEST ORIGINAL SCORE
THE BALLAD OF BUSTER SCRUGGS / Carter Burwell
BLACK PANTHER / Ludwig Goransson
FIRST MAN / Justin Hurwitz
IF BEALE STREET COULD TALK / Nicholas Brittell
ISLE OF DOGS / Alexandre Desplat
...Nicholas Brittell is set to have a big year. I should say, Vice only had a temp track so I have no idea what the finished product sounds like.

BEST ORIGINAL SONG
BLACK PANTHER / “All the Stars”
BOY ERASED / “Revelation”
THE HATE U GIVE / "We Won't Move"
MARY POPPINS RETURNS / “Trip a Little Light Fantastic”
A STAR IS BORN / “Shallow”
...Not sure how likely "All the Stars" is (it'd be my choice) as it's a end credits song. Then again, so is RBG. The Hate U Give seems like the kind of film that gets a song nom.

BEST FOREIGN-LANGUAGE FILM
BURNING / South Korea
COLD WAR / Poland
NEVER LOOK AWAY / Germany
ROMA / Mexico
SHOPLIFTERS / Japan
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Re: Short Lists for Multiple Categories

Post by Okri »

Yeah, what oscarguy said. Of course cisgendered actors should be able to play transgendered characters. But pretending that trans actors have the same opportunities for visibility and roles is ridiculous. Precious, I can buy the idea that this director of Girl did cast a wide enough swath when searching (it's a fairly specific dance role, after all) but I can also believe he didn't look hard enough. I don't understand why that's controversial for some people.
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Re: Short Lists for Multiple Categories

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The issue for the trans community is twofold. Yes, they think all trans characters should play trans characters, but more importantly, they think that trans actors should be given more opportunities and the constant casting of cismale actors or cisfemale actors in trans roles denies them that. I favor the latter argument over the former.

Of course, the gay community itself has struggled with that question for decades, but for visibility sake, having a major actor take on a gay role (such as Tom Hanks in Philadelphia) brings attention to the subject without alienating audience members. We're a long way away from that necessity and yes, it would be great if more gay actors were given an opportunity to play gay roles, but I'm on the "that's what acting is" bandwagon.

While I would love to see more black stories told by black directors, more gay stories told by gay directors, more female stories should be told by women, more trans stories told by trans directors, I think anyone should be able to tell any story as long as they tell it well. I also argue that I think black directors should be able to tell white stories, gay directors should be able to tell straight stories, women directors should be able to tell women's stories, and trans directors should be able to tell cis stories. Directors and actors should take on the roles that interest them. Enable all actors and directors to tell the stories they are passionate about.

More of the stories being told should be told by the community who understands it better. That doesn't mean others cannot tell those stories well. More opportunities should exist for non-white, non-straight, non-trans, non-male directors. I just don't think we should force them to tell only their stories and therein lies the rub.
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Re: Short Lists for Multiple Categories

Post by Precious Doll »

There is a recent French film that has been made called The Wild Boys (2017) about a group of teenage boys. Only different they are played by teenage girls.

There was a Japanese film made in the 1980s that was about a group of Japanese teenage girls. They cast was played by teenage boys.

Filmmaker have always played around with gender, just like they do with race and provided a film is not based on a factual event I never see any problem with it.
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Re: Short Lists for Multiple Categories

Post by Big Magilla »

I haven't seen Girl - obviously, because it hasn't been shown in the U.S., but I agree with Precious.

This only trans should play trans arguments goes against casting being done everywhere. Should we refuse to see the upcoming Broadway revival of King Lear because Glenda Jackson isn't a man?

I hope the film wasn't left off the short list because of this nonsense.
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Re: Short Lists for Multiple Categories

Post by Precious Doll »

anonymous1980 wrote:
Precious Doll wrote:
Mister Tee wrote: From what I've been reading, Girl would have been a Twitter war waiting to happen, so its omission from the foreign shortlist may be a blessing for the Academy. The list as is features far more prominent candidates than we usually see.
Mister Tee,

Is the issue to do with the gender of the actor playing the title role?
Yes and also the director. There are people who despise the fact that both the director and the lead actor are cis males. "Transface" is one word one person I encountered online described it.
Urgh. This whole argument that is emerging that trans should play trans, gay should play gay, etc. Its beyond nonsense. Of this years Oscar hopefuls one need look no further than Melissa McCarthy who is the best thing about Can You Ever Forgive Me? in which McCarthy (a heterosexual) plays a lesbian. By the arguments going on that role should have been played by an out lesbian actress.

Acting is acting. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Victor Polster is excellent in Girl and perfect for the role. Could a trans have played the role - yes but the director cast whom he felt was right and it worked.

My partner and I were discussing Girl earlier today. He didn't like the film and felt that the actor was too tall and would have been told she could not be a ballerina at that height as ballerinas tend to be on the petit side. My argument was that in todays world no one would dare deny the character an opportunity - the social media uproar would not be worth it.

I didn't have any idea that the director has copped crap. Should only trans make films about trans, gays about gays and so on. One could take the ridiculous argument further. Only murderers can play murderers, only hookers can play hookers, only drug addicts can play drug addicts. Urgh.

Without that knowledge, I assumed Girl missed out primarily because last year they awarded A Fantastic Woman and they may have figured to some degree. Truth be told they are completely different films, using different story telling styles about two completely different individuals.
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Re: Short Lists for Multiple Categories

Post by anonymous1980 »

Precious Doll wrote:
Mister Tee wrote: From what I've been reading, Girl would have been a Twitter war waiting to happen, so its omission from the foreign shortlist may be a blessing for the Academy. The list as is features far more prominent candidates than we usually see.
Mister Tee,

Is the issue to do with the gender of the actor playing the title role?
Yes and also the director. There are people who despise the fact that both the director and the lead actor are cis males. "Transface" is one word one person I encountered online described it.
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Re: Short Lists for Multiple Categories

Post by Precious Doll »

Mister Tee wrote: From what I've been reading, Girl would have been a Twitter war waiting to happen, so its omission from the foreign shortlist may be a blessing for the Academy. The list as is features far more prominent candidates than we usually see.
Mister Tee,

Is the issue to do with the gender of the actor playing the title role?
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Re: Short Lists for Multiple Categories

Post by Okri »

Foreign Language film is going to be a bloodbath. Wow.
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