Reasons/blame for Whiteout 2?

[Precious Doll]

One of the ways to help overcome this would be if those who consider this a concern (Spike Lee, Will Smith's wife, George Clonney) is to start up a production company with the purpose of making films that focus on non-white characters.

Why is it assumed if the character isn't explicitly non-white that the character then must be white?

I don't want to single out any particular movie, but there are dozens and dozens of Oscar-worthy movies that featured a white lead that would have been just as effective of films had the lead been played by a non-white. The emphasis here needs to be on CASTING non-white leads, not in creating special movies that require them.

Well from this years slate Matt Damon's role in The Martian is a classic example of a role that Will Smith for example could easily do. Had Will Smith played the role there is no doubt he would have given a performance equal to or better than Matt Damon. Would he have been nominated for an Oscar? I don't know I can only speculate and the reality it could go either way. No doubt The Martian would still have been a world wide hit.

The same issue applies to women. Why can't gender neutral roles be filled by women more often than they do. There have been cases over the years where a woman or a non-white has taken a role originally written for a white male actor but it is far and few between.

The only thing that may help this is to have quota's to increase the roles for non-white and women in films that can accommodate these casting changes.

[flipp525]

Rob, I listened to your podcast that you posted (last week maybe?) where you and two other guys were discussing your nominations predictions. I really enjoyed it. I think you should definitely try and interface directly on the Board as Tee suggested, but I did give it a gander.

You're getting a quick capsule-view of Board personalities by starting this debate, that's for sure.

Welcome!

[rob9802]

One of the ways to help overcome this would be if those who consider this a concern (Spike Lee, Will Smith's wife, George Clonney) is to start up a production company with the purpose of making films that focus on non-white characters.

Why is it assumed if the character isn't explicitly non-white that the character then must be white?

I don't want to single out any particular movie, but there are dozens and dozens of Oscar-worthy movies that featured a white lead that would have been just as effective of films had the lead been played by a non-white. The emphasis here needs to be on CASTING non-white leads, not in creating special movies that require them.

[Heksagon]

One of the problems I feel facing the financing of films with black actors is the lack of box-office draw outside of the U.S. Just take a look at the U.S. box-office compared to the international box-office on Box Office Mojo for films such as Selma, Straight Outta Compton, The Help, Creed (though it has yet to open in some foreign terrorties) and the films of Tyler Perry.

I think that these films are not representative. Selma, Compton and Help are all about very specific American subjects that don't translate to foreign audiences. Tyler Perry's films are even more made for American audiences, but not because of Perry's skin color. Creed only just opened, or has not yet opened in Europe, but it expect it to do well at the box office, eventually.

Films with big stars usually do better in foreign market, and that is true regardless of skin color. For example, Will Smith's After Earth earned only $60 million in the U.S. box office, but triple that in the foreign market. I don't think black actors hurt the box office as much in the foreign market as you suggest.

[Precious Doll]

All this complaining by hang wringing by entertainment industry types is becoming tiresome. They should put their money where there mouth is an come up with some ideas to improve the industry for non-whites (and women in general as well whilst they are at it).

One of the ways to help overcome this would be if those who consider this a concern (Spike Lee, Will Smith's wife, George Clonney) is to start up a production company with the purpose of making films that focus on non-white characters.

They could help to finance (or more likely help to obtain financing) a variety of films, with some aimed at the commercial market and others to a more discerning audience. They could also help up and coming non-white filmmakers as well as established filmmaker to make small personal films. Of course keep production costs as low as possible with the emphasis on % payments for all concerned once films are running into profit.

They should also not limit themselves to just cinema, but to television and on-line productions as well. The root of the problem is pure and simple: economics.

Films are primarily made if it is felt they can make a profit, particularly in the U.S. for which Government assistance for filmmakers lags way beyond other Western countries.

One of the problems I feel facing the financing of films with black actors is the lack of box-office draw outside of the U.S. Just take a look at the U.S. box-office compared to the international box-office on Box Office Mojo for films such as Selma, Straight Outta Compton, The Help, Creed (though it has yet to open in some foreign terrorties) and the films of Tyler Perry. It's important to ensure that anything that is made can make it's money make in the U.S. with any international profits the icing on the cake so to speak.

Unless you are Eddie Murphy, Will Smith or Denzel Washington in their heyday the international market is a tough one for American films dealing with black characters. That is not going to change particularly as other countries have their own film industries which are struggling against the onslaught of Hollywood product.

Also times are changing rapidly and they need to be able to anticipate these changes and be on top of them. The problem is not the Academy (which is far from perfect as we know) but the industry and society as well. The Academy is simply an easier target.

Hell, I think Tangerine is the best film of 2015 featuring a cast primarily of non-whites. I would love to have seen it nominated in a number of fields by it failed to gain a single nomination despite Magnolia's modest effort. I don't think the Academy is racist or transphobic because of the omission. The simple reality is is that Tangerine is simply not the type of film the Academy would embrace but thank goodness Sean Baker was able to get it made and seen and it has made a profit. In the end of the day that is what counts.

[ITALIANO]

You aren't the first person I've seen mention this, but truly, this strikes me as an INSANE way to combat this particular problem.

Yes, it would bring idiocy to unheard-of levels. It wouldn't necessarily mean more black performers nominated - but it'd certainly mean more undeserving performances nominated. Sometimes they can't even find FIVE good nominees...

I'm sure that there are very good black actors in America. But there must reasons why American cinema doesn't give them the same opportunities it gives to white actors - and these reasons must be found in American society, not in the Oscars, which only mirror the situation.

And it's not just the quantity of roles given to black performers - but also the quality. When I read enthusiastic reviews for Viola Davis's banal role (and performance) in The Help - a role and a performance that, if done by a white actress, would have rightly been quickly forgotten - I realize that there's a condescending aspect about this whole issue, and I don't like it, because it's the wrong way to deal with it. Let's face it - political correctness still influence the way black roles are written, and it often makes these roles much less interesting than those for white actors, less profound (though of course there are exceptions). So I'm not surprised if the Academy sometimes doesn't nominate such performances.

And by the way - I think that the Academy, especially in recent years, has been TOO generous towards black actors. Absolutely. I'd say it openly even if I were in the US - I'm not afraid. Of the many blacks who have won the Oscar, in all honesty, whom I'd give MY personal Oscar to? Morgan Freeman certainly - even more than one. Sidney Poitier MAYBE - not for that movie though. And then? Mo'nique wasn't bad in that film, but I should check the other nominees that year. Juanita Moore was good but I still think Kohner was better.

And then of course I know that there are GREAT black actors - Don Cheadle, Cicely Tyson, Angela Bassett, Chiwetel Ejofor - but frankly I am not sure that I'd find a way to give them an Oscar, if I have to be completely objective and unsentimental.

I'm sure that if you play this game, too, you'd come to the same conclusion: the Academy has been over-generous towards black performers. It's American cinema (and American society) which should be accused.

[The Original BJ]

4) When the Academy expanded to 10 Best Picture nominees a few years back, I believed that the days of six acting nominees was coming soon. The Emmys are there now and I think CBI is going to push for this next.

You aren't the first person I've seen mention this, but truly, this strikes me as an INSANE way to combat this particular problem. Just look at this year. There's no way the sixth place vote-getter in either female acting category was non-white. In Supporting Actor, MAYBE it was Idris Elba...but it just as easily could have been Shannon, Keaton, Dano, or Tremblay. And in Best Actor, MAYBE it was Michael B. Jordan/Will Smith...but maybe it was Johnny Depp or one of the above men bumped up. And had there been 6 acting nominees per category in 2014, there's a very good chance the sixth place Best Actor nominee was Jake Gyllenhaal (or even Ralph Fiennes), not David Oyelowo, and none of the other acting categories would likely have had a diverse sixth place vote getter. I don't see how expanding the number of nominees = you automatically get more diversity.

But, to Okri's point...I'm not sure what the solution is. And I agree that the right thing to do isn't to suggest that this will just sort itself out.

And even if I fall short of ecstatic level, I'm sure I will be rooting for Hamilton to win many Tonys this year.

[Eenusch]

Some thoughts:

1) Spike Lee’s resentment in 1989-90 was not so much with Dead Poet’s Society but with Best Picture winner Driving Miss Daisy. Lee hates DMD with a passion and not just on artistic grounds but for the fact that its victory was interpreted as a kind of stamp of approval from the Academy on what enlightened race relations look like.

2) Actor David Oyelowo (Selma) admitted in a speech on Monday that Cheryl Boone Isaacs invited him to her office after last year’s “whiteout” to discuss “what went wrong.” I find this disturbing. Again, is she apologizing for the results of the vote? Didn’t she say at last year’s luncheon that she was proud of all the nominees? Should someone ask Ben Affleck if he got a special call after he failed to get a director’s nom for Best Picture winner Argo?

3) Aren’t George Clooney and Matt Damon friends? Clooney made a statement today to the effect that Will Smith deserved a nomination for Concussion. Now, from my observation of many social media sites, I get the impression that Damon is judged as the least deserving among this year’s Best Actor nominees, despite the GG win. Someone should ask George who should’ve been bumped to make room for Smith.

4) When the Academy expanded to 10 Best Picture nominees a few years back, I believed that the days of six acting nominees was coming soon. The Emmys are there now and I think CBI is going to push for this next.

[nightwingnova]

I agree that the Oscars should not be tainted by these issues because awarding the best performances is wholly different from writing parts and casting.

Don't ruin or taint the awards for issues that should be fought in another venue.

[Okri]

And for the record, if we're talking about undeserved nominations, I would happily remove both the nomination for Creed and the nomination for Straight Outta Compton. Although what "side" of this debate would that put me on? The side that didn't want nominations for black-themed movies? Or the side that would happily remove the nominations for the white people associated with them? It's getting ridiculous, no? And as Mister Tee says, it is undercutting a real problem, because if there are SO many parts for actors of color they could be filling entire nomination rosters with them, I guess nobody in Hollywood should focus on increasing diversity in movies, cause the problem is just the racist ol' Academy.

a) Firstly, anyone who says they knew that all the writers of Straight Outta Compton were white BEFORE the oscar nominations is probably lying. Just saying.

b) I dunno, you were the one that didn't love Hamilton. I'd expect that to be used as a cudgel.

c) To what extent are we willing to explain it away as "they don't think outside the box" and just leave it at that? Is the correct answer just to hope that the AMPAS course will correct itself with time, because I gotta say, I"m not convinced of that.

[rob9802]

Thanks, Sabin!
I've been involved with a year-long fantasy movie league of my own creation for close to a decade. We do bonuses for having movies that win and get nominated for Oscars, so I wish I would've found this message board sooner. I plan to hang around and post often.

[Sabin]

Hey, Rob! Welcome to the board. I'm looking forward to checking out your podcast. Keep posting!

[rob9802]

So is now the wrong time to inform you all the latest episode to my box office/oscar buzz podcast will air Thursday?
Also, sorry for basically breaking your message board.
/walks backward out of room.
/closes door
/opens door, grabs hat
/closes door

[mlrg]

Well I'm sure that 90 % of americans think that Portugal is in latin america anyway

[OscarGuy]

Before we go any further, it's important to put race and ethnic origin questions into their proper context.

Here's a link to a PDF discussing demographic data for Census 2000. It's a little out of date, but it explains well how race and ethnicity are two different demographic qualities on the census form or, as the section specifically discussing it says: "The federal government considers race and
Hispanic origin to be two separate and distinct concepts."

http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/cenbr01-1.pdf

Here's the data from 2010:

http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/brie ... 0br-02.pdf

Now, can we please stop talking about how the US has a faulty sense of RACE versus ORIGIN? Anyone who uses the term RACE to refer to Hispanic or Latino peoples is incorrect.

I will continue to refer to the issue as a matter of diversity rather than a matter of race because it's not just about race. All minority groups are unfairly misrepresented by the Academy, but not for lack of trying. Should the gay community boycott the Oscars because Carol wasn't nominated and that gay people weren't represented in the acting categories? No. Should we encourage a discussion of the importance of broadening influence and availability of roles to gay actors and of work to gay directors? Yes.